Modesty

I've already told ya'll somewhere around here or maybe in one of the many other such threads we've had around here lately that the reason Gerald and Gregory(who seems to have thrown in with Gerald) want lists of right and wrong for everyone to follow is this: They either doubt the power of the Holy Spirit to work out God's will in an individual soul individually or they need the reassurance that supposedly comes with following such a list (well I did everything on the list so I must be saved), or they want to have the "glory" that comes from being able to perform such a list better than everyone else.

They can't answer your question honestly, Amy, because they know that such lists of requirements are something they have come up with and not God. They don't believe that God gave us a brain to use instead of blindly following any old soul that comes along claiming to be sent by God. They dont think we have the intelligence to figure out that if God had intended for us to dress in the same style garments that He made for Adam and Eve, He would have told us.

And obviously, Gerald has forgotton that Paul said he was striving for perfection but no where did he ever say he had reached it. But then Gerald seems to have had a special dispensation of perfection from God the moment he was saved. (hmmm, wonder did that dispensation come with a complete understanding of scriptures?)

 

I don't think so!:tongue3:

 

good post MK

 

well, if we're all completely changed, all work on us is done by God on the day we are saved, then theres no more growth and change left to do, means we're all alright right where we are, becaseu God completed us, we're perfect now, have been since salvation.

 

Lilith, what do you mean by " you christians" ? If your a christian too, when anyone says "you christians" you would be included. But when you say "you christians' you seperate yourself from the group you are talking about, in this case christians. I don't think this is what you meant is it?

 

That makes it sound like her dress may be a lesser problem. Does she have no more respect for you than to discuss your concerns and thoughts in a civil way?

A husband is due at least as much honor as a father. If a woman owes honor to a father she didn't choose, how much more to a husband she did choose and willfully make a covenant with?

If you don't watch, how do you know?

Perhaps not but it wasn't me that aired your wife's dirty laundry here. And, it is definitely not me who is trying to rationalize or evade the implications my wife's behavior.

My comments were intended to help you. I haven't seen her obviously. The crux of my suggestion was that you don't close your eyes to her.

Yes. Men struggle with sexually related lusts as much if not more than any other thing.

Every man is wise to keep guard on both his own eyes and heart and also to help his wife understand that things she may think of as innocent can provoke a man to lust.

You think sexual lusts and sins are silly? You think the responsibility of Christians to NOT be part of a greater problem is silly?

What precisely is it that you think silly? Perhaps it was in the parts that were taken out because I didn't see it.

Look at the society around you brother. The god of sexual sin is everywhere. We as Christians have a responsibility to recognize it and not support it.

 

By the principles of 1 Corinthians, it would be the weakest brother around.

 

Faulty Interpretation? On whose Part?

Amy,I don't know where you got that particular interpretation of the passages I quoted. I got mine by not only considering the context as well as simply believing the plain english of my King James bible. I think I'll stay with what I got even if it isn't considered "progressive" enough nor "culturally correct". I believe that which I believe about the modesty issue honors the Lord and keeps my wife and I from being a visual stumbling block to those around us. Personally,though I don't speak for Gerald (although I do agree with him on this issue),I'm NOT trying to tell anybody what standard they should keep or what rules to follow. I just know what is right for me but I'm not afraid to say so. The problems here never seem to arise until somebody (in this instance Gerald or myself) stands up and declares his or her understanding of the truth and gets somewhat dogmatic about it. It is NOT WRONG to be dogmatic...but it is wrong to be dogmatic and WRONG. I try to not be dogmatic unless and until I am sure I know the truth. On the issue of immodesty the "truth" lies somewhere between the matter of NUDITY and the matter of improper SENSUALITY. ANY uncovered skin is a degree of nudity but God gives us a conscience and some common sense to determine just what is right and wrong. By the way...I don't advocate Burkhas(spelling?)but neither do I think women should dress skimpy or in tight fitting clothes.If you don't like my definition of MODESTY then come up with your own ...just remember though that ultimately you'll have to stand before the Lord and give an accounting of yourself to HIM.... not myself ,or Gerald or anyone else. As I've said before,we all need to quit making excuses and be honest with God about how we live our lives.....' we are not our own...we are bought with a price....' Think about it. God Bless You.

 

Excuse me Scott? Did I just understand you to say that the weakest brother around should be the spiritual authority? Did I really? And what is it in I Corinthians that gives you this idea?

 

You are right again, Gregory. But what is happening here is that those who don't believe there is a "list" of modesty rules for all occasions are being told that we are ungodly rebels who therefore won't be standing before God. At least not in the same line as all the "good" Christians.

Somehow I see this as an arbitrary decision by someone who can't possibly have that knowledge.

 

1 Corinthians 8 and I should have said weak rather than weakest.

There will always be someone completely out of reason and control. Pastors didn't just start running off with piano players when women began to wear pants.

OTOH, Christians do have a responsibility not to use their liberty in a way that causes another to stumble. We have liberty over dress and should be prudent and discerning about it.

 

Sorry If I Was Misunderstood

MK, I wasn't trying to imply that I'm any better than anyone else here by any means. I was just trying to champion the issue of Biblical modesty as something that we all should (as Born Again Christians) strive to be faithful to for the obvious reason of avoiding sexual sins or causing others to fall prey to them. Also there is the matter of living godly testimonies in front of the lost folk,family,friends,coworkers and others that we come in contact with every day. We are commanded to live godly,righteously,holy,and seperated lives from the unregenerate world around us. Everyone of us is at a different stage of growth in our walk with the Lord....but the Word of God and His standard of righteousness ( whatever it may be) is static and unchanging. There are some dogmatic ,ironclad, unchangeable truths in God's Word....and yes...there are some gray areas that good men sometimes disagree on. Modesty should not be one of them in my opinion.:thumbs:

Greg Perry Sr.

 

BTW, yes, that is pretty much a catch all passage concerning how we should behave as Christians.... and, yes, those who through pride, legalism, or other sin would discourage someone weaker whose dress weren't quite up to their standard is subject to that passage also.

And another thing, you quite often wouldn't have to go much deeper than the top 1% of strong Christian men before you found difficulty ignoring an attractive, immodest woman.

 

I daresay, by the attitudes of some here, I wouldn't have to go deeper than the top 1% of strong Christian men before I found difficulty in ignore an attractive modest woman. Somehow, these conversations alway end in men saying that if only women _____, instead of taking responsibility for their own thoughts.

By your own interpertation of I Cor. 8, it is a primer on the actions of Christians, It doesn't suggest that the weaker brother should be the spiritual authority. You think Paul would have given over authority to a brother less grounded in the faith than he?

 

MK, you always post good stuff

 

It is a WAR

MK, I speak only for myself but I'll honestly say without hesitation that the biggest reason this modesty topic keeps my attention is because that in my own personal life and daily walk with the Lord this is one of my areas of greatest weakness and constant struggle largely due to the immoral liberties I took both before I was saved and even after during times in my life when I fell out of fellowship with the Lord ( to my shame and regret and His reproach). Somedays it seems that the devil literally parades a steady stream of immodestly dressed women before my eyes. Sadly...many times...this parade DOES NOT STOP when I walk in the church house on Wednesdays and Sundays. The one place in my week that I go where there ought to be refuge (besides my home)from this is church....so yeah....I get an attitude of sorts when the professing Christian women are no better than the lost ones in the world. I just grow weary of tired excuses and people who just don't want to do right for whatever reason. We are in a WAR....Satan is trying to cause us to remain ineffective for the cause of Christ...anyway he can. God Help Us.

Greg Perry Sr.

 

Most people's weaknesses as christians do go back to before they were christians, we all struggle with them, but we can not place full blame on otheers for our failures, we must accept responsability for those sins ourselves, or we can never have victory over them. And in Jesus victory si possible, but only when we confess the sin being our own.

 

Where I don't promote modest as an outside standard per se I do believe this reflects the inward state of the believer. However, there are two sides to every coin. Their dress being a confrontation to your weakness also gives you measurement in your process of perfection. Maybe that why God put all us sinners together in one place???

 

Speaking as a man who has trouble with his own thoughts, I completely agree with this and, quite frankly, it annoys me to no end. Real men take responsibility for their own lustful thoughts.

Matthew 5:28

I heard a preacher say, from the pulpit, that the words "with her" in this verse mean that if a man lusts after a woman, then the woman has committed adultery too solely based on the way that she's dressed. That's utter nonsense and allows the man to skip out on his responsibility for his own lustful thoughts.