Monergism and Synergism

[jdlongmire]

What, you've read my posts and you still don't know?

I can deduce, but vote and remove all doubt

 

[swaimj]

None of your choices reflect my opinion so I cannot vote in good conscience.

 

[jdlongmire]

None of your choices reflect my opinion so I cannot vote in good conscience.

What other position is there?

 

[jdlongmire]

Here is another view of the choices:

Monergism: God effectuates, Man participates

Synergism: God coordinates, Man cooperates

 

[swaimj]

Here is the biblical statement and position.

IF YOU will confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead you will be saved. For with the heart man believes and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

IMHO, monergism minimizes the availability of salvation to all who hear the gospel and denies the simplicity with which it is received.

 

[jdlongmire]

Here is the biblical statement and position.

IF YOU will confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead you will be saved. For with the heart man believes and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

IMHO, monergism minimizes the availability of salvation to all who hear the gospel and denies the simplicity with which it is received.

not true, it is quite simple - you are a monergist or synergist by how you answer this simple question:

From whence cometh belief unto the heart?

God or Man?

Here is the answer:

Ezekiel 36:26
"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh."

What say ye?

 

[swaimj]

From whence cometh belief unto the heart?

God or Man?

Allan has already answered this question by pointing out that it is the wrong question. All people have faith in something. The question of salvation is whether a person's faith is in the proper object: Jesus Christ.

Monergism: God effectuates, Man participates

Synergism: God coordinates, Man cooperates

Wow! Is this language from a monergism website? Can you show me where they say this? I am not aware that monergism says that man participates in salvation. Frankly, man's participation in his own salvation is more scandalous than saying that man cooperates in his own salvation!

 

[skypair]

Wow! Is this language from a monergism website? Can you show me where they say this? I am not aware that monergism says that man participates in salvation. Frankly, man's participation in his own salvation is more scandalous than saying that man cooperates in his own salvation!

Yup. jdl has "foot in mouth" disease. :laugh:

jdlongmire I want you to think about this: What is the difference between YOU proposing to your wife and Christ "proposing" to His bride, Eph 5:32 -- to unbelievers before they are saved? Between you being engaged to your wife and "I have espoused you to one husband [Christ]," (2Cor 11:2) of Paul, what's the difference? Did your wife-to-be and the Corinthians not know their "betrothed?" Did they not make their decisions WITHOUT compulsion from you/Christ? Did you and Christ allow them to choose or did you and Christ "bewitch" them to "espouse?"

skypair

 

[jdlongmire]

Allan has already answered this question by pointing out that it is the wrong question. All people have faith in something. The question of salvation is whether a person's faith is in the proper object: Jesus Christ.

so I can read your mind! I figured even in the face of solid rebuttal you would squirrel around some more.

but we finally get back to the OP - please read it - you are synergist.

Wow! Is this language from a monergism website? Can you show me where they say this? I am not aware that monergism says that man participates in salvation. Frankly, man's participation in his own salvation is more scandalous than saying that man cooperates in his own salvation!

Give me a break - God fully effectuates salvation, man takes part in God's finished work through Christ - he does not cooperate.

vs

God coordinates all the right circumstances and Man, in and of himself, makes a choice. Some, through something special within them all their own, choose God.

Are you special, bro? Do you have the capability in and of yourself to break the bondage of sin and see and choose the light as opposed to those sad creatures that had a glimpse and deferred?

I see Skypair apparently does - and at least he is honest about it - how about you?

 

[jdlongmire]

Yup. jdl has "foot in mouth" disease. :laugh:

jdlongmire I want you to think about this: What is the difference between YOU proposing to your wife and Christ "proposing" to His bride, Eph 5:32 -- to unbelievers before they are saved? Between you being engaged to your wife and "I have espoused you to one husband [Christ]," (2Cor 11:2) of Paul, what's the difference? Did your wife-to-be and the Corinthians not know their "betrothed?" Did they not make their decisions WITHOUT compulsion from you/Christ? Did you and Christ allow them to choose or did you and Christ "bewitch" them to "espouse?"

skypair

Bro - you have a 20th century view - the bride is promised and given to the groom.

Christ doesn't come to woo - He comes to claim what he has paid the betrothal price for - His Bride.

 

[Jarthur001]

Yup. jdl has "foot in mouth" disease. :laugh:

jdlongmire I want you to think about this: What is the difference between YOU proposing to your wife and Christ "proposing" to His bride, Eph 5:32 -- to unbelievers before they are saved? Between you being engaged to your wife and "I have espoused you to one husband [Christ]," (2Cor 11:2) of Paul, what's the difference? Did your wife-to-be and the Corinthians not know their "betrothed?" Did they not make their decisions WITHOUT compulsion from you/Christ? Did you and Christ allow them to choose or did you and Christ "bewitch" them to "espouse?"

skypair

Sky,

I'm glad you brought this wedding up for it is a great example of monergistic salvation.
Not how you tell of the wedding, but how a wedding came about in Bible days. I think if we look at this we ALL will see clearly salvation as it is seen in the Bible.

There were some weddings that want outside the rules and customs of that day, but for the most part It was the groom that made the choice of his bride. The bride really had no say so in the covenant. After a young lady caught the grooms eye and he wished to marry her, he would set a betrothal. This was done with a marriage covenant. The groom would ask the brides father to marry her, and not the bride. Most of the time, the bride had no idea of the meeting till a "deal" was met. The deal was how much would the groom need to pay (an mohar) in order to marry the young lady. Once the deal was set, the groom must pay that price before the marriage covenant was established.

This is what Jesus meant when he said..""This cup is the new covenant in my blood".

I'm sure you can see salvation in this story. Christ the Groom, and the bride is the elect of God. God the Father plays the father fore it is the Father that the bride owes. Christ ask what will it take? The Father says, If you give me your life with the taking of your blood on the cross and she(the elect) is yours for you then have paid the price. Christ dies on the cross and as soon and the bride is His.

Now..A little side note. The wedding in the Jewish world did not take place for a year. In some cases it was longer then a year. But the bride still belonged to the groom the whole time.

Now that my friend is a pure picture of salvation. It is also monergistic.

 

[skypair]

James,

You've finally piqued my interest. :laugh: I remember Jacob and Leah, Jacob and Rachel. They apparently knew each other pretty well and I'd have to agree that the marriage to Leah was "monergistic" and brought about by the worldly "system" in Midea. Not so sure but what Rachel was consenting/willing even before the "proposal," though.

Far clearer to me is the example of Eleazer finding Rebecca for Isaac. In that story, Eleazer (as the Holy Spirit) "persuades" Rebecca (in another country and sight unseen) to wed his master's son. This story and the story of Rachel appeal more to the "synergistic view" of 1) the bride's knowledge of her betrothed and 2) her consent to the arrangement. I tend to think of Mary and Joseph that was as well even though Mary was very young. In these cases, the prospective bride was not 2 years old, for instance.

And you were right that I was thinking more about current custom when thinking about the "great mystery, Christ and His church." I don't comprehend how one is "made willing and irresistibly" accepts the relationship within her own heart unless, like Herod "almost" was, she is "persuaded" like Rebecca -- unless she "owns" decision.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Bro - you have a 20th century view - the bride is promised and given to the groom.

Christ doesn't come to woo - He comes to claim what he has paid the betrothal price for - His Bride.

Actually, the apostles thought He would "at that time claim His kingdom" but it turned out that He would do so only if Israel would accept Him.

It was only when He was about to be crucified that He pointed us to the "new covenant of His blood" whereby if we intentionally partook, we would enter into it. We must willingly, purposely, and NOT "irresistibly" (as Calvin required in Geneva) choose to put that cup of His sacrifice to our own lips.

Well, I think you know this if you think about it. The Lord's Supper is no more a "monergistic" work than the spiritual event that it represents -- trusting Christ as Savior.

skypair

 

[swaimj]

God fully effectuates salvation, man takes part in God's finished work through Christ

Once again, can you substantiate this statement from material on a monergist website? I would be shocked if you can.

 

[jdlongmire]

Allan has already answered this question by pointing out that it is the wrong question. All people have faith in something. The question of salvation is whether a person's faith is in the proper object: Jesus Christ.

So - again, here is the crux of monergism vs synergism.

To all non-monergists, since most won't choose their stand :

Granting you that all people have faith (not that I agree - as I said, I know at least one group that would deny this to the death and the Bible clearly states that not all do) - how is one person, all other salvific elements being equal, able to focus their faith to the proper object and the other not?

Is it:

a. Something they just "naturally" are able to do?
b. chance/luck?
c. highly developed spiritual/mental ability?
d. effectuated by God through the Holy Spirit?
e. a mystery?

Remember, I am asking how, not why...

 

[jdlongmire]

Once again, can you substantiate this statement from material on a monergist website? I would be shocked if you can.

well, since I happen to be a member of one of the premier monergist discussion forums, I posted my pithy statements for review. Let me tell you - on this board, if you make statements that are even slightly doctrinally dicey - you will get chewed up - well, the level of response should give you an idea of how far afield my statement was considered - see here.

BTW - the response is from one of the moderators.

 

[jdlongmire]

Once again, can you substantiate this statement from material on a monergist website? I would be shocked if you can.

from monergism.com

Salvation
In essential agreement with the teachings of the Bible as understood by Protestant Reformers, the Westminster Confession of Faith, The Cannons of the Synod of Dort and in the evangelical tradition of men such as Paul, Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Knox, the Puritans, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, C.H. Spurgeon, and Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones, I believe in a salvation that is given by the sovereign grace of God (monergistic). Our justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, as revealed in the Scriptures alone, to the glory of God alone. Due to God's divine initiative in embracing fallen humanity through Christ (Eph. 2:8-10; Tit. 3:4-7) and no merits on the believer's part, salvation is the free and full participation in God's saving work in Christ, uniting us through His Spirit. It is knowing and being known by God through Christ (Gal. 4:9; 1 Cor. 13:12). A restoration to God's original intent for us, the end for which we were created.

 

[jdlongmire]

Once again, can you substantiate this statement from material on a monergist website? I would be shocked if you can.

H. B. Smith, however, in his System of Christian Theology, is more clear in the putting of Union with Christ before Regeneration. On page 502, he begins his treatment of the Application of Redemption with the title: “The Union between Christ and the individual believer as effected by the Holy Spirit. This embraces the subjects of Justification, Regeneration, and Sanctification, with the underlying topic which comes first to be considered, Election.” He therefore treats Union with Christ (531–539) before Regeneration (553–569). He says Calvin defines regeneration as coming to us by participation in Christ, and apparently agrees with this view (559).
“This union [with Christ] is at the ground of regeneration and justification” (534). “The great difference of theological systems comes out here. Since Christianity is redemption through Christ, our mode of conceiving that will determine the character of our whole theological system” (536). “The union with Christ is mediated by his Spirit, whence we are both renewed and justified. The great fact of objective Christianity is incarnation in order to atonement; the great fact of subjective Christianity is union with Christ, whereby we receive the atonement” (537). We may add that this union with Christ, in view of which God elects and to which God calls the sinner, is begun in regeneration, completed in conversion, declared in Justification, and proved in sanctification and perseverance.

from here on monergism.com

 

[swaimj]

JD,
The quotes you link to speak of a person's participation with Christ. This is a passive idea. However, you said that a person participates which is an active verb. If salvation is all of God in it most literal sense, than a person cannot participate in his own salvation. Your buddy on the board you linked to warned you that, while HE understood what you are saying, your statement could be problematic. I think he is correct.

If you say that salvation is all of God, it is no different to say that man actively participates than to say that he cooperates.

I think all of this is really getting down to semantics. The point I have sought to make is the point made by Paul in Romans. Man MUST believe and He MUST confess Christ. Man's salvation is conditioned upon these responses. It seems that you position speaks a language that denies this, then agrees with it when confronted and modifies its language.

 

[jdlongmire]

JD,
The quotes you link to speak of a person's participation with Christ. This is a passive idea. However, you said that a person participates which is an active verb. If salvation is all of God in it most literal sense, than a person cannot participate in his own salvation. Your buddy on the board you linked to warned you that, while HE understood what you are saying, your statement could be problematic. I think he is correct.

If you say that salvation is all of God, it is no different to say that man actively participates than to say that he cooperates.

As I said to my buddy, who originally had no issue with the terms, but, as I said, that board is all about precision and refining :

"Participate" and "participation" can imply passive or active states, so it is largely a matter of semantics and intended use. We participate in the union of Christ not actively, but passively, that is, we invest nothing and take part in, or partake of, all the benefits.

And don't forget, the idea is to contrast the meaning behind effectuate vs coordinate as well as cooperate vs participate in terms of monergism vs synergism. Everything in context. Otherwise, we get to defining what "is" is.

The use of participation and participate in the monergistic substantiation is consistent and in context intended with the slogan.

Back to the OP - are you ready to vote?