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Monergism vs Synergism
- Thread starter Reformer
- Start date
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Reformer said:
Did you read the entire text? Did you understand what I said. Did you just highlight those two areas out of context and comment on them? Should I break it down and explain it more simply? Before we go further we should define what we mean. Then we understand each other in context. Am I to believe that you end salvation with just justification?
BTW how is that any different than saying that a person who has never demonstrated works in their live was probably never saved in the first place. I see salvation as everything in the Christian experience and you seem to just see justification which limits it.
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All is going much better.Reformer said:I will pray for your family, hope all is well.raying:
Reformer
My wifes uncle was admitted into the hospital and flown to a different one in the same state due to severe cardiac problems and other issues with a very good chance he will die.
As of last report, they took him off the ventilator (sp?) and he was sitting up and doing some short walks.
Though his physical will still take a while to heal (and even then it will never be the same) his spiritual is well and as of shortly before the episode transpired - saved. (praise God! ) He had some really bad blood between his sons and him and he wanted to make amends but never got the opportunity to say he was sorry. Before his salvation it was the only thing he wanted to settle. When his sons were in the hospital room with him and he was coming around enough to think and talk straight, the first thing he said to both his boys is that if he was going to die he wanted to makes sure they were right with God (saved). Now his boys want to take both him and their mother back home the Carolinas with them and keep them close by to take care of them. Something they never cared about before nor even contemplated (according to them).
God is great and greatly to praised, Amen?
Allan} Here again said:God saves us first and then we believe. Yet Jesus states "believe and be saved". The apostles state that we are justified, sanctified, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, righteous and IN Christ, by faith - not before we believe. All of these are what make up the regeneration. Without them one is not regenate no matter how you want to parse it.[\quote]
Then you responded:
Yes, even with 'irresistable grace'. The Reformers did not believe nor did they hold a person was forced to believe but in their view God regenerated man first so that the man of his own volition or will may freely receive the salvation that God desires to impart. You see the axe still falls on the fact that unless man of his own volition believes (whether incorporating irrestable grace or not) no man will ever be saved. Thus man still has a part to play in his salvation, it is still his choice to respond positively in order to be saved. So as you see, my 'theory' does not fall apart even under when the microscope of your view of 'irresistable grace' but maintains the fact that man does indeed participate in his salvation because withouth the man himself choosing to believe that man will not be saved.Reformer said:
Side bar: - What is interesting in scripture is that those things that make one regenerate (justified, sanctified, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, righteous and IN Christ) are never stated to have been imparted or happened except 'by faith'. Thus until one excersizes faith one can not be regenerate or made new (old things are no longer but now all things are made new). Thus no man can be born again unless that man has placed faith in Christ because all are inparted by faith.
This side bar however can be elaborated on in another thread which I have already created a little while back on regarding regeneration, called : Ordos Salutis 2; The Regeneration...
Just correcting my previous posting:
Yes, even with 'irresistable grace'. The Reformers did not believe nor did they hold a person was forced to believe but in their view God regenerated man first so that the man of his own volition or will may freely receive the salvation that God desires to impart. You see the axe still falls on the fact that unless man of his own volition believes (whether incorporating irrestable grace or not) no man will ever be saved. Thus man still has a part to play in his salvation, it is still his choice to respond positively in order to be saved. So as you see, my 'theory' does not fall apart even under when the microscope of your view of 'irresistable grace' but maintains the fact that man does indeed participate in his salvation because withouth the man himself choosing to believe that man will not be saved.
Side bar: - What is interesting in scripture is that those things that make one regenerate (justified, sanctified, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, righteous and IN Christ) are never stated to have been imparted or happened except 'by faith'. Thus until one excersizes faith one can not be regenerate or made new (old things are no longer but now all things are made new). Thus no man can be born again unless that man has placed faith in Christ because all are inparted by faith.
This side bar however can be elaborated on in another thread which I have already created a little while back on regarding regeneration, called : Ordos Salutis 2; The Regeneration... sounds kinda like a sci-fi movie huh :laugh: I started the thread in order to talk specifically about regeneration apart from it's orginal thread "Ordos Salutis" where the topic orginally began. I have made two such threads but never really get anyone to participate. I wish to explore the 'how' question which leads to the 'when'. You are welcome to come and look as well as set forth what you understand or that the reformers have stated regarding the questions I have set forth in the thread and OP. It is something I beleive that is crucial to properly understanding the Ordos Salutis. But don't get any who really wish examine it. But come if you want or not - either way may God richly bless you brother.
Then you responded:Allan said:
Reformer said:
Yes, even with 'irresistable grace'. The Reformers did not believe nor did they hold a person was forced to believe but in their view God regenerated man first so that the man of his own volition or will may freely receive the salvation that God desires to impart. You see the axe still falls on the fact that unless man of his own volition believes (whether incorporating irrestable grace or not) no man will ever be saved. Thus man still has a part to play in his salvation, it is still his choice to respond positively in order to be saved. So as you see, my 'theory' does not fall apart even under when the microscope of your view of 'irresistable grace' but maintains the fact that man does indeed participate in his salvation because withouth the man himself choosing to believe that man will not be saved.
Side bar: - What is interesting in scripture is that those things that make one regenerate (justified, sanctified, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, righteous and IN Christ) are never stated to have been imparted or happened except 'by faith'. Thus until one excersizes faith one can not be regenerate or made new (old things are no longer but now all things are made new). Thus no man can be born again unless that man has placed faith in Christ because all are inparted by faith.
This side bar however can be elaborated on in another thread which I have already created a little while back on regarding regeneration, called : Ordos Salutis 2; The Regeneration... sounds kinda like a sci-fi movie huh :laugh: I started the thread in order to talk specifically about regeneration apart from it's orginal thread "Ordos Salutis" where the topic orginally began. I have made two such threads but never really get anyone to participate. I wish to explore the 'how' question which leads to the 'when'. You are welcome to come and look as well as set forth what you understand or that the reformers have stated regarding the questions I have set forth in the thread and OP. It is something I beleive that is crucial to properly understanding the Ordos Salutis. But don't get any who really wish examine it. But come if you want or not - either way may God richly bless you brother.
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Why do people always insist on putting christians into two "camps" - calvinist or arminian? What about neither? I find it extremely weird, as they say you have to be one or the other. Well, sorry to confuse the issue, but I'm neither, as both are wrong
What I simply believe in is salvation by grace through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.
I believe in the eternal security of the believer. I believe that Jesus Christ died for all men, and I believe what the Bible says, "That whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
It's really so simple, makes one wonder why men go all out to complicate it?
What I simply believe in is salvation by grace through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.
I believe in the eternal security of the believer. I believe that Jesus Christ died for all men, and I believe what the Bible says, "That whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
It's really so simple, makes one wonder why men go all out to complicate it?
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Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Goldie said:
I had a friend (a pastor and missionary) who said that he was a Calminiast.
Reformer said:
Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, (saved) and I should heal them.
"Monergism" says it's God/Jesus fault for Israel not being "Converted".
"Synergism", says it's Israel fault for not being "Converted".
"What do you say??
The question is not about whether man "participates" or not (depending upon how one defines the term). The question is whether salvation is monergistic or synergistic.Allan said:
If by man's "participation" you mean that his "contribution" is in some way independent or adjoined to God's work wherein God's work is not truly effectual, then I would disagree.
If by man's "participation" you mean this his "contribution" is a part of, or a result of, God's effectual work in his life, then I would agree.
The question is not whether man has to exercise faith to be saved or whether faith comes from man's will. The question is whether man's faith is in some way independent or that it must complement an ineffectual work of God. The question is whether man's faith unto salvation comes by proxy of his fallen nature or that it is characteristic of regeneration.
AresMan said:
Faith and salvation (grace) are separate, People have faith in all types of different religions without being saved.
Calvin's doctrine said that was impossible without being first "regenerated", obviously, from what we see in the world, that's not true.
"CHOOSING" what one "Believes" is a "Choice" given to everyone, and it's this choosing to believe God/Jesus/Scripture/Spirit's call that is the reason God choses to save us,
so "FAITH" is necessary before the "Salvation".
If God is not willing for any to perish, and no one comes to the father "EXCEPT" God calls them, then God is "Obligated" to call all, or be "less than truthful", which is impossible for God.
The Gospel being preached to the whole world, "For a "witness", before the end comes will leave none justified they never had the opportunity to "hear/believe/call on him for salvation.
Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Act 2:37, they asked Peter, "WHAT SHALL WE DO", if they had been "predestine" the correct answer would have been there's "NOTHING" you can do.
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
God knew by "Foreknowledge" who would accept/reject him, but the "Offer" is still made, just as Jesus made the offer to Israel, and they refused.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I will post this from a thread I attempted to start which no one seems to be interested in. I do want to make my views on the Biblical Doctrines of Grace known.
Folks might be taken a little aback by Monergism vs Synergism so I thought I could put it a little differently.
“Holy God: I am eternally grateful for your sovereign grace through which You chose me unto salvation through the finished work of Jesus Christ.
I now understand that:
a. You chose me through no merit of my own.
b. Though I was spiritually dead in trespass and sin You made me spiritually alive,
c. You granted unto me salvation, and
d. You made me accepted in the beloved.
Because this was done solely by the work of the Holy Spirit I cannot boast but can only say as did the Psalmist my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation." [Psalm 13:5]
Folks might be taken a little aback by Monergism vs Synergism so I thought I could put it a little differently.
“Holy God: I am eternally grateful for your sovereign grace through which You chose me unto salvation through the finished work of Jesus Christ.
I now understand that:
a. You chose me through no merit of my own.
b. Though I was spiritually dead in trespass and sin You made me spiritually alive,
c. You granted unto me salvation, and
d. You made me accepted in the beloved.
Because this was done solely by the work of the Holy Spirit I cannot boast but can only say as did the Psalmist my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation." [Psalm 13:5]