Monergism vs. Synergism

[Iconoclast]

Faith is not the object of the gift in this passage. In Romans 3:24 we see that the gift is grace and faith is not listed as part of the gift. Romans 5:15 is as well. No passage in scripture shows the gift as being faith but always grace.

Faith is part of the gift in eph2. It is part of the salvation that comes through grace.

 

[moral necessity]

I think some agreement in this thread could possibly come by some contemplation over "primary causes" and "secondary causes". God is the primary cause of all things regarding our salvation, or else he is probably not entirely God. Man is induced to action by God, and therefore follows through with the process. God is glorified because he is the prime mover. Man is active in the process because God has made him become so.

This is basically monergism...or "synergism" in a somewhat loose sense of the word.

"Synergism" in a pure sense involves two "primary causes" that work together towards a common goal. This tends to invite the idea of man being sovereign over his part, and God being sovereign over his part. Hence, there are perhaps two sovereignties...and the door tends to become opened to the idea of two gods.

I don't think the Arminians really venture this far in their thinking. The Pelagians and Semi-Pelagians do, however. Arminius believed in primary causes and secondary causes. To him, God restored to all man the ability to choose (as secondary causes) to believe upon Christ. To Calvin, God only restored to his elect this ability. To Pelagius, man never lost this ability. To semi-Pelagians, men only lost the strength.

Both Arminius and Calvin believed in total depravity. The main difference was in who was restored...and perhaps when. See Roger Olson's work, Arminian Theology, found here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0830828419/?tag=baptis04-20

Blessings and fellowship...

 

[Revmitchell]

Faith is part of the gift in eph2. It is part of the salvation that comes through grace.

I know that is the standard line of reformed folks but you will not find any other passage to back that interpretation up.

 

[Herald]

I'm trying to get you to admit that faith isn't a work because it doesn't merit anything.

Of course faith isn't a work; and I'm not suggesting a Synergist is saved other than by faith. What I'm saying is that synergistic theology explains faith as though it is a work. Please follow my explanation. I'm not asking you to agree with it, just to understand it. I think you and I agree that God makes the sinful heart capable of believing. I believe scripture teaches that the Holy Spirit does that through regeneration. The whole process of salvation - the ordo salutis - is so quick that it is nearly simultaneous. The time lapse between the component parts would be imperceptible to us. The first thing that happens in the ordo salutis is regeneration (Ezk. 36:26 and alluded to in Acts 9:17; Eph. 2:4, 5). Once the Holy Spirit regenerates the sinner, the sinner is then able to believe or exercise faith. You had some fun with my use of the word "exercise" but you know what the word means. It's simply a more technical way of saying "use". So, it would be appropriate to say that man must do something in the ordo salutis - he must believe. But the ability to do so is given by the Holy Spirit through regeneration. Once the sinner is regenerated his will is now released from bondage. He is no longer a slave to sin (Rom. 6). Having been freed from sin there is an irresistible drawing to God. It is the natural reaction of a spiritually freed man. It is the like the blind man who was able to see for the first time.

John 9:35-28 35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, “Do you believe in the Son of God?”[e] 36 He answered and said, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?” 37 And Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you.” 38 Then he said, “Lord, I believe!” And he worshiped Him.

When he was able to see, not only with his eyes, but then with his heart, he believed. There was no possibility that this man would have chosen otherwise.

So you think one must be given life in order to believe, yet scripture clearly teaches that life comes through faith.

And the sinner does not possess faith in his fallen state. That faith is given by God at the appropriate time and purpose. The time? At regeneration. The purpose? To be born from above.

Skan, I would rather us disagree on this point, because it is the substance of the debate. The Synergist views man as in control of his spiritual destiny. God brings to a certain point but that's it. He'll bring the sinner to the lake but won't make him drink. The Bible teaches that God frees the sinner's will to see the lake in all its splendor, and then he desires nothing more than to drink, and drink freely (John 4:10).

 

[OldRegular]

Skandelon you have failed to respond to a question I posed about your response to an earlier post by me. I assume this was an oversight but I am curious!

Response by OldRegular
Only in your mind Skandelon. You are assuming a parallelism that is unwarranted. As I said parables are parables. Now consider your initial post to which I responded:

Originally Posted by Skandelon
Sorry to have to be the one to tell you that the inconsistency is yours. We deny WORKS in salvation because we understand the difference in meritorious works by which one earns or deserves his salvation by his deeds, and imputed righteousness by Grace through faith.

Tell me, did the Prodigal Son earn or merit the response he got from his Father because he returned home to beg for forgiveness and a servant job? Of course not. He deserved to be slapped and sent packing, but BECAUSE OF A GRACIOUS FATHER ALONE, he was fully restored as a Son and Heir. He didn't earn that or merit that or WORK for that...so to presume that his humiliating and shameful return is equal to 'works salvation' is unfounded biblically.

I hope this helps you understand the error of your inconsistency about our views.

You yourself say:

He deserved to be slapped and sent packing, but BECAUSE OF A GRACIOUS FATHER ALONE, he was fully restored as a Son and Heir.

So the prodigal was a son when he left and a son when he came back according to your statement above! You cannot be restored to something you never were, can you?

 

[Skandelon]

Skandelon you have failed to respond to a question I posed about your response to an earlier post by me. I assume this was an oversight but I am curious!

I answered that question in post 36...

 

[Skandelon]

Of course faith isn't a work; and I'm not suggesting a Synergist is saved other than by faith. What I'm saying is that synergistic theology explains faith as though it is a work.

I know that is what you are saying and I'm telling you that is INCORRECT, because we don't believe faith merits salvation, any more so than you do. Whether faith flows effectually from regeneration or is a free response to God's gracious appeal it is still something MAN is responsible for and is a necessity for salvation, but it doesn't MERIT salvation in either case. It is not a WORK because it is not EARNING or DESERVING of salvation. UNDERSTAND?

Let me try it this way. The bible says that God gives grace to the humble, right? Now, does that mean that humble people deserve to be giving grace? NOOOOO! If it did then it wouldn't be grace, it would be a merit or wage. Whether humility is a quality of man imposed by God or freely chosen by man matters not as to this fact.

One more illustration: Suppose my 5 year old, who has about 35 cents to his name, is wanting to buy my old ipod. Can he afford it? No. He can't give me anything that would be WORTH receiving my ipod. Well, days go by and one evening after dinner suppose that there was only one cookie left and it was his, but his little sister dropped her cookie and the dog ate it, and she was crying. He chooses to give her his cookie and I see him do it. In response, I decide give him my ipod. Did that cookie deserve an ipod? Did even that act of sharing earn or merit or deserve something like that? No. It was a gift in response to his humble gesture. As a 5 year old he couldn't have every really done enough work to merit that price (because 5 years old work isn't valuable enough as it causes more messes than it helps).

Now, all analogies fall short, and this one certainly doesn't cover all the issues involved, but what it does show is that no one would ever say that the boy worked to merit that gift. If he had looked at me before giving up the cookie and said, "Dad, if give up my cookie will you give me your ipod?" I would have said "NO DEAL," because it had nothing to do with that. It was a gift of love in response to what I deemed as a choice of self sacrifice. See the difference?

The Jews were trying to earn God's favor and 'make a deal' for their eternal life. That is works salvation. They are attempting to earn something they couldn't possibly earn. If they gave up trying and rested in Him they would have received what they were working so hard to merit. But had they said, "Hey, God, if I give up trying and humble myself, then will you give me eternal life?" It would have been the same problem. They would have tried to manufactured some false humility made a profession so as to once again attempt to earn it. Either way, that is works salvation, but that is NOT what we believe in. Okay?

 

[Skandelon]

Once the sinner is regenerated his will is now released from bondage. He is no longer a slave to sin (Rom. 6). Having been freed from sin there is an irresistible drawing to God. It is the natural reaction of a spiritually freed man. It is the like the blind man who was able to see for the first time.

So, once he is freed by regeneration then he will desire to believe, right? So, he will freely of his own will choose to believe because he will want to believe. How is that not a "work" according to your definition earlier? Even if he is doing it as a result of regeneration, he is still doing it and it is still a necessity for his salvation. He is still saved by grace through a work. It may be a work effectually produced by regeneration, but its still a work according to your definition. What you definition lacked was the aspect of 'earning/deserving or meriting." Neither of us believe that any amount of faith merits or deserves salvation, or at least we shouldn't.

When he was able to see, not only with his eyes, but then with his heart, he believed. There was no possibility that this man would have chosen otherwise.

Can't help but wonder why the inward work of regeneration wasn't sufficient to bring Thomas to faith?

Skan, I would rather us disagree on this point, because it is the substance of the debate. The Synergist views man as in control of his spiritual destiny.

That is a misrepresentation. That would be like believing the Prodigal Son was in control over whether or not his Father would receive him when he returned home. He was completely at the mercy of the Father, just as we are. He owes us nothing and we control nothing that he hasn't granted us control over.

 

[humblethinker]

So, once he is freed by regeneration then he will desire to believe, right? So, he will freely of his own will choose to believe because he will want to believe. How is that not a "work" according to your definition earlier? Even if he is doing it as a result of regeneration, he is still doing it and it is still a necessity for his salvation. He is still saved by grace through a work. It may be a work effectually produced by regeneration, but its still a work according to your definition. What you definition lacked was the aspect of 'earning/deserving or meriting." Neither of us believe that any amount of faith merits or deserves salvation, or at least we shouldn't.
Can't help but wonder why the inward work of regeneration wasn't sufficient to bring Thomas to faith?

That is a misrepresentation. That would be like believing the Prodigal Son was in control over whether or not his Father would receive him when he returned home. He was completely at the mercy of the Father, just as we are. He owes us nothing and we control nothing that he hasn't granted us control over.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Excellent answers.

 

[Yeshua1]

So, once he is freed by regeneration then he will desire to believe, right? So, he will freely of his own will choose to believe because he will want to believe. How is that not a "work" according to your definition earlier? Even if he is doing it as a result of regeneration, he is still doing it and it is still a necessity for his salvation. He is still saved by grace through a work. It may be a work effectually produced by regeneration, but its still a work according to your definition. What you definition lacked was the aspect of 'earning/deserving or meriting." Neither of us believe that any amount of faith merits or deserves salvation, or at least we shouldn't.
Can't help but wonder why the inward work of regeneration wasn't sufficient to bring Thomas to faith?

That is a misrepresentation. That would be like believing the Prodigal Son was in control over whether or not his Father would receive him when he returned home. He was completely at the mercy of the Father, just as we are. He owes us nothing and we control nothing that he hasn't granted us control over.

how can sinners whose very nature is at war against God, whose desire is to remain in darkness, come to jesus and get saved apart from the lord granting them new herats/minds/ears able to receive and believe thetruth of Him though?

 

[Herald]

I am going to quote from the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith, and a well known Reformed author, in order provide a more eloquent explanation of what I have been trying to say.

Chapter 11: Of Justification

1. Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth, not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in his death for their whole and sole righteousness by faith, which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.

( Romans 3:24; Romans 8:30; Romans 4:5-8; Ephesians 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:30, 31; Romans 5:17-19; Philippians 3:8, 9; Ephesians 2:8-10; John 1:12; Romans 5:17 )

I do not believe that God imputes faith as Roman Catholicism teaches. Rather, in agreement with the framers of the confession, saving faith is a gift from God. If saving faith is a gift from God, how it is appropriated? How is the gift received? Well, you certainly cannot receive faith by faith. It must come by another means. That means is regeneration. Regeneration is a unilateral act of God that is not dependent on man.

In his 2007 work, "The New Birth", R.C. Sproul writes:

In the Augustinian and Reformation view, regeneration is seen first of all as a supernatural work of God. Regeneration is the divine work of God the Holy Spirit upon the minds and souls of fallen people, by which the Spirit quickens those who are spiritually dead and makes them spiritually alive. This supernatural work rescues that person from his bondage to sin and his moral inability to incline himself towards the things of God. Regeneration, by being a supernatural work, is obviously a work that cannot be accomplished by natural man on his own. If it were a natural work, it would not require the intervention of God the Holy Spirit.

Secondly, regeneration is a monergistic work. “Monergistic” means that it is the work of one person who exercises his power. In the case of regeneration, it is God alone who is able, and it is God alone who performs the work of regenerating the human soul. The work of regeneration is not a joint venture between the fallen person and the divine Spirit; it is solely the work of God.

Thirdly, the monergistic work of regeneration by the Holy Spirit is an immediate work. It is immediate with respect to time, and it is immediate with respect to the principle of operating without intervening means. The Holy Spirit does not use something apart from His own power to bring a person from spiritual death to spiritual life, and when that work is accomplished, it is accomplished instantaneously. No one is partly regenerate, or almost regenerate. Here we have a classic either/or situation. A person is either born again, or he is not born again. There is no nine-month gestation period with respect to this birth. When the Spirit changes the disposition of the human soul, He does it instantly. A person may not be aware of this internal work accomplished by God for some time after it has actually occurred. But though our awareness of it may be gradual, the action of it is instantaneous.

Fourthly, the work of regeneration is effectual. That is, when the Holy Spirit regenerates a human soul, the purpose of that regeneration is to bring that person to saving faith in Jesus Christ. That purpose is effected and accomplished as God purposes in the intervention. Regeneration is more than giving a person the possibility of having faith, it gives him the certainty of possessing that saving faith.

The result of our regeneration is first of all faith, which then results in justification and adoption into the family of God. Nobody is born into this world a child of the family of God. We are born as children of wrath. The only way we enter into the family of God is by adoption, and that adoption occurs when we are united to God’s only begotten Son by faith. When by faith we are united with Christ, we are then adopted into that family of whom Christ is the firstborn. Regeneration therefore involves a new genesis, a new beginning, a new birth. It is that birth by which we enter into the family of God by adoption.

Finally, it’s important to see that regeneration is a gift that God disposes sovereignly to all of those whom He determines to bring into His family.

continued...

 

[Herald]

continued from my previous post...

It all comes down to the Synergist believing that regeneration follows faith, not precedes it. The Monergist believes scripture teaches that regeneration precedes faith. Faith then becomes a natural work of regeneration; or regeneration matured, if you will. It is something man does, but he has been gifted by God to do it through regeneration. Try as you might to accuse the Monergistic view of turning faith into a work, it is Synergism who does that by making faith precede the work of the Spirit.

 

[Yeshua1]

continued from my previous post...

It all comes down to the Synergist believing that regeneration follows faith, not precedes it. The Monergist believes scripture teaches that regeneration precedes faith. Faith then becomes a natural work of regeneration; or regeneration matured, if you will. It is something man does, but he has been gifted by God to do it through regeneration. Try as you might to accuse the Monergistic view of turning faith into a work, it is Synergism who does that by making faith precede the work of the Spirit.

again, how do spiritual dead people summon up faith to receive jesus, as theur sin natures rebekl againstsuch a thing, as we want to save ourselves by our own works and efforts? See EVERY other religion not Christianity!

 

[Skandelon]

I am going to quote from the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith, and a well known Reformed author, in order provide a more eloquent explanation of what I have been trying to say.

Your responses and representations of Calvinism were quite adequate and I don't see anything listed here that would change anything I have said in response to you already.

Could it be that you opted to copy and paste confessional statements because you didn't want to answer the arguments I already posed against your stated views?

 

[Herald]

Could it be that you opted to copy and paste confessional statements because you didn't want to answer the arguments I already posed against your stated views?

Could it be that you just weren't getting it and I thought it necessary to provide another perspective? Yes. That's it.

 

[Herald]

I don't see anything listed here that would change anything I have said in response to you already.

.....Ditto.

 

[Skandelon]

Could it be that you just weren't getting it and I thought it necessary to provide another perspective? Yes. That's it.

Awww, the ol' "you must not agree with me because you don't really understand me" argument. I'm calling you out on that one.

Please specifically lay out what I said that was misrepresentative of your views? Could it not be that I understood you, but disagreed?

Or maybe you will admit that when "WORKS" is define properly (involving merit), that you'd have to admit that neither of us hold to a works based salvation?

 

[SovereignMercy]

I know that is the standard line of reformed folks but you will not find any other passage to back that interpretation up.

Well... The Guy who saved me said the same thing...

Your buds asked Him this one time. They didn't believe His answer, so I don't expect you to either.

Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

 

[Skandelon]

It is something man does

Then if fits in your definition. You need to change you definition a little for this not be be a work as well.

but he has been gifted by God to do it through regeneration.

and according to your definition that would be man in cooperation with God following being regenerated. You need a different soteriology or a different definition of works.

Try as you might to accuse the Monergistic view of turning faith into a work, it is Synergism who does that by making faith precede the work of the Spirit.

I don't believe EITHER of our views makes faith into a work. I think you definition of works (where you exclude the concept of merit) is false, thus causing this false label.

 

[Iconoclast]

I know that is the standard line of reformed folks but you will not find any other passage to back that interpretation up.

Salvation in scripture is .....NEVER....not once to be said to be.....Because of FAITH......it is always by, or through faith.

Man does not have inherent saving faith.Faith as an instrumentality is given along with repentance at regeneration as a gift from God.