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Monergism vs. Synergism

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Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Nope....his argument is they are behaving as carnal in this one sin[sectarianism]

they were behaving as mere natural men...out of character..

Yes, which made it impossible for them to receive the 'deep things of the Spirit' (the meat) which Paul was referring to just a few verses before. Thanks for helping to debuke one of Calvinism's favorite proof texts. :thumbsup:
 

Iconoclast

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Yes, which made it impossible for them to receive the 'deep things of the Spirit' (the meat) which Paul was referring to just a few verses before. Thanks for helping to debuke one of Calvinism's favorite proof texts. :thumbsup:

He does not say it is impossible.....you do not understand either chapter,

this false division of milk and meat.....would make Van proud, but to those who understand the passage it just shows you have missed it altogether,

after rebuking them, Paul speaks of more important matters
 

jonathan.borland

Active Member
I like Adam Clarke on Eph 2:8:

But it may be asked: Is not faith the gift of God? Yes, as to the grace by which it is produced; but the grace or power to believe, and the act of believing, are two different things. Without the grace or power to believe no man ever did or can believe; but with that power the act of faith is a man’s own. God never believes for any man, no more than he repents for him: the penitent, through this grace enabling him, believes for himself: nor does he believe necessarily, or impulsively when he has that power; the power to believe may be present long before it is exercised, else, why the solemn warnings with which we meet every where in the word of God, and threatenings against those who do not believe? Is not this a proof that such persons have the power but do not use it? They believe not, and therefore are not established. This, therefore, is the true state of the case: God gives the power, man uses the power thus given, and brings glory to God: without the power no man can believe; with it, any man may.

Good, classic stuff, and the same arguments used from earliest Christianity, period.
 

percho

Well-Known Member
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The reason I believe that is all of God. Monergism

If the Son of God had not been born of a woman all of mankind upon dying would have ceased to be. Dying all would have died. Gen 2:17

Any life we might receive will be from Spirit the God and will come to us through his only begotten Son, Jesus of Nazareth. And that life will begin in us by us having received the promise of the Holy Spirit from God the Father through Jesus his Son. ----- Now. Gal. 3:14 says, " That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through the faith."

Does that verse not mean that the promise of the Spirit that is received through the faith, is the mode by which the blessing of Abraham is received through Jesus Christ? If the answer is yes then the faith by which the promise of the Spirit is received must be the faith of Christ and not anything pertaining to us. ----- Further, Jesus told the disciples on the night he was betrayed, " Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." John 16:7

In other words; If I do not go away you will not receive the promise of the Spirit, the Comforter. The going away (death) of Jesus was the faith of Christ. He became obedient unto death even the death of the cross. Obedience of faith. A phrase found twice in the bible and it was because of the obedience of faith Paul was called and the gospel was preached to the nations.

Eternal salvation became a reality when the grace which brought it first appeared. Compare Titus 2:11 with Heprews 5:9 It appeared the day God the Fathger said, "Thou art my Son this day have I begotten thee." The day Jesus was raised from the dead.

Salvation is available because of: By Grace of God the Father through the faith of Jesus Christ his Son.

Then we being put, "in Christ," by the promise of the Spirit makes us children of God by faith, in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:26

If you examine the verses before this verse beginning at 22-25 you will see
all were concluded under sin being under the law the schoolmaster until the faith came. After the faith came those called of God are translated from being under the law to being under grace. Compare also with Rom. 6 The promise of the Spirit has given you the blessing of Abraham that is imputed with the righteousness of God also; Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Rom 4:7,8

All of you can correct me where I am wrong or misunderstand.
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
Okay, Brother, say I give you two 30 lb dumbbells. Now, you can look at those three times a week, an hour each day, and still be as weak as you were prior to me giving them to you. You have to work out with them before them become beneficial to you. God grants faith as a gift is absolutely correct, but man must exercise it before it becomes beneficial to him. Just because God gives man something doesn't mean he will put it to good use. IOW, God doesn't irresistibly give us anything. He offers and we either accept it or reject it. One can't exchange the truth for a lie w/o first possesing said truth.





False premise. You show me where someone is "alive" outside of Christ. In y'alls usage of regeneration, there's something else needing finished before salvation is complete....exercising faith. Pre-faith regeneration places an extra "step" in the salvation process, that the Word never ascribes to. When a man believes....exercises said faith, he is then placed in Christ and regenerated. Man isn't regenrated and then given the ability to believe. Y'all have this backwards.







Nope....you're wrong....na na na na na boo boo!! :laugh: :D


If only this represented the true nature and manner in which some disagree with one another here in BB land.
 

percho

Well-Known Member
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Doesn't Salvation come to us through Jesus the Christ?

Are we currently only heirs of salvation? Those who are to inherit salvation when the time for inheritance comes.

Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs (inheritors) of salvation?
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author (First cause) of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Jesus has inherited and we are, "in him," heirs to inherit eternal salvation, eternal life by resurrection/instant change at the appearing of Jesus our life, see Col 3:4 When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. The same glory we are joint heirs with him of in Romans 8:17 The same glory God the Father gave him in 1 Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith (his death) and hope (grace, his life) might be in God.
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I like Adam Clarke on Eph 2:8:

Quote:
But it may be asked: Is not faith the gift of God? Yes, as to the grace by which it is produced; but the grace or power to believe, and the act of believing, are two different things. Without the grace or power to believe no man ever did or can believe; but with that power the act of faith is a man’s own. God never believes for any man, no more than he repents for him: the penitent, through this grace enabling him, believes for himself: nor does he believe necessarily, or impulsively when he has that power; the power to believe may be present long before it is exercised, else, why the solemn warnings with which we meet every where in the word of God, and threatenings against those who do not believe? Is not this a proof that such persons have the power but do not use it? They believe not, and therefore are not established. This, therefore, is the true state of the case: God gives the power, man uses the power thus given, and brings glory to God: without the power no man can believe; with it, any man may.



Good, classic stuff, and the same arguments used from earliest Christianity, period.

Could we look at Mr Clarks thoughts in this context?

Paul departed that morning for Damascus with the power to believe yet he was an unbeliever. We know this for later on he is a believer. What is the power to believe?

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Is it possible for these Jesus spoke this, to believe? Do they have the, "power," to believe? Was Paul though an unbeliver, of the sheep of Jesus?
If he is, of his sheep, yet an unbeliever; When will he believe?

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: They hear the voice of Jesus and they follow him.

And he said, Who art thou, Lord? Acts 9:5 And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

By what faith did Paul go from being an unbeliever to a believer? Did something well up from deep inside Paul and Paul of himself became a believer? Or did Jesus call one of his sheep unto belief?

Acts 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Could we look at Mr Clarks thoughts in this context?

Paul departed that morning for Damascus with the power to believe yet he was an unbeliever. We know this for later on he is a believer. What is the power to believe?

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Is it possible for these Jesus spoke this, to believe? Do they have the, "power," to believe? Was Paul though an unbeliver, of the sheep of Jesus?
If he is, of his sheep, yet an unbeliever; When will he believe?

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: They hear the voice of Jesus and they follow him.

And he said, Who art thou, Lord? Acts 9:5 And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

By what faith did Paul go from being an unbeliever to a believer? Did something well up from deep inside Paul and Paul of himself became a believer? Or did Jesus call one of his sheep unto belief?

Acts 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

The New Birth!
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
Three major problems with your interpretation:

1. Paul calls the brethren in Corinth 'carnal.' (1 Cor 3)

2. Proving someone is an enemy doesn't prove they can't respond willingly to God's appeal for reconciliation, that's the presumption you are reading into this text because it never actually states it.

3. Not being able to submit to God's law isn't equal with being unable to respond to God's gracious appeal to be reconciled. (see more below)

Inability to do what? Submit to the law and merit one's salvation? We all agree with that as I've said over and over. Again, Calvinists mistake is to presume that because men are unable to attain righteousness by LAW through WORKS that they likewise are unable to attain righteousness by GRACE through FAITH. This verse proves the first and you wrongly apply it to the latter.

Why would you think so little of the powerful, life-giving, Word of God as to conclude that man's fallen nature is more powerful than it? God's appeal would certainly enable a response from whoever he was appealing to. "The truth will set you free!" "How will they believe unless they hear?"

God holds men responsible (response-able) for his response to the gospel appeal, which strongly implies men are able to respond to it.

Once again you have the cart before the horse.

John 20:29: Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." 30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.​

Notice the order:

John says, "BY believing you may have life"
Calvin says, "by life you may believe"


:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
 

Herald

New Member
Here is what we can conclude:
1. The Natural man cannot receive these things Paul is addressing

You are incorrect. The natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God, not just the things Paul is addressing. In v. 12 Paul writes, "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things freely given to us by God," (underlining mine). What are the things freely given to us by God? Are they the things of earlier in chapter 2? Yes. Are they only the things earlier in chapter 2? No. The Spirit gives us understanding of all the things of God; or more accurately all the things that God desires for us to know. Therefore it is not limited just to those verses preceding verse 14.

Skandelon said:
2. The Spiritual man can receive these things Paul is addressing

Nuance, Skan. Not just the things Paul is addressing, but, "the things freely give to us by God." Also, "But he who is spiritual appraises all things" (v. 15) not just the things of 1 Cor. 2.

Skandelon said:
3. The BRETHREN (believers) are not being "spiritual" and cannot receive these things Paul is addressing

Thus, the "things" Paul is addressing here cannot be in reference to the simple gospel truth (milk) because the "brethren" (believers) cannot receive them.

(more later, got to run)

You are incorrect again. Paul never says that the Corinthian believers cannot receive the things he is addressing. They may be hampered in their understanding due to worldly living (3:1-3), but they are able to understand (receive). If not, why Paul's letter to the "church of God which is at Corinth"; why Paul's letter to those he calls "saints" (1:2)?

Paul makes a categorical distinction in 1 Cor. 2. He compares the worldly saints at Corinth with the natural, unsaved person (v. 14). He does this to let them know that they do know. They know better than to live carnally. The sinner knows only one way. The saint knows both ways and is to choose the right way.
 
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Herald

New Member
Then why would you so badly misrepresent what we believe? Either you need to be taught what we believe or you need to stop purposefully misrepresenting us. We do not believe one merits salvation (which by definition is 'works based salvation.') Read WITBOTL's post as at least he is willing to acknowledge this basic truth.

I am accurately representing what your theology teaches, and it's logical conclusion.

My discussion is with you on this issue. With all due respect to WITBOTL, I am able to formulate my own position.

Skandelon said:
When the Calvinist protests as to why God has made the Arminian unwilling to accept his dogma, should we respond, "Who are you ol' man to question the maker?" For it can only be referred to as MY 'steadfast refusal' if MY doctrine is correct, but if Calvinism is correct then its God's ordained will to withhold from me the grace by which I would accept this 'truth.' IOW, stop questioning God and be a consistent Calvinist.

You're espousing foolishness. I am not protesting as to why you believe error. Believe what you want. You're willing to enter into debate about the topic, and I am more than willing to entertain such debate. I'll point out when you're wrong, but you're free to believe it.

Skandelon said:
An accusation that I challenge you to make a case for... quote where I misrepresented Calvinism and then correct the misrepresentation... (I won't hold my breath)

How much time do you have? I've said this to you before; neither of us is going back to previous posts to cut and past all the "misrepresentations" we claim the other is guilty of. The best way to expose the other's error is to deal with the text. This is why I asked you whether you are willing to explain your understanding of the passages in Romans, 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, and Colossians. Instead of debating each other philosophically, dealing with the text focuses our attention on what God has to say.
 

Winman

Active Member
Herald, it is verse 12 that actually refutes your view.

1 Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

At first glance, this verse does seem to support Total Inability that the natural man is unable to understand and thus believe the gospel.

The problem is, there is MUCH scripture that easily refutes this view.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Paul's question demands the answer that these Galatians received the Holy Spirit by first believing the gospel. This refutes the view of Calvinism.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Paul's question here clearly shows he believed a person received the Holy Spirit after first believing on Jesus. This refutes the view of Calvinism.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Paul plainly and directly tells us here that these Ephesians received and were sealed by the Holy Spirit AFTER first believing the gospel. This refutes the view of Calvinism.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter plainly and directly tells these Jews they must repent and believe on Jesus (for only believers are allowed to be baptized) and that AFTERWARD they would receive the Holy Spirit.

Calvinism pulls 1 Cor 2:14 out of context and falsely claims it teaches the natural man cannot believe the gospel, and ignores MANY scriptures that plainly and directly show us the natural man can believe the gospel, and that if he does he will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. All of these scriptures easily refute the false view (and teaching) of Calvinism.
 
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percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Herald, it is verse 12 that actually refutes your view.

1 Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

At first glance, this verse does seem to support Total Inability that the natural man is unable to understand and thus believe the gospel.

The problem is, there is MUCH scripture that easily refutes this view.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Paul's question demands the answer that these Galatians received the Holy Spirit by first believing the gospel. This refutes the view of Calvinism.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Paul's question here clearly shows he believed a person received the Holy Spirit after first believing on Jesus. This refutes the view of Calvinism.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Paul plainly and directly tells us here that these Ephesians received and were sealed by the Holy Spirit AFTER first believing the gospel. This refutes the view of Calvinism.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter plainly and directly tells these Jews they must repent and believe on Jesus (for only believers are allowed to be baptized) and that AFTERWARD they would receive the Holy Spirit.

Calvinism pulls 1 Cor 2:14 out of context and falsely claims it teaches the natural man cannot believe the gospel, and ignores MANY scriptures that plainly and directly show us the natural man can believe the gospel, and that if he does he will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. All of these scriptures easily refute the false view (and teaching) of Calvinism.

I highlighted that concerning Gal. 3:2

1st I am not a Calvinist, 2nd Paul does not say that in your explanation.

To paraphrase, Paul says you did not receive the Spirit by the works of the law but you received the Spirit by the hearing of faith.

G3:22 Paul states, scripture concludes all under sin. How? Romans 3:20 states, Therefore by the deeds (works) of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

So all have been put under the law. Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. (G3:22 all be concluded under sin.)

G3:24 calls the law our schoolmaster and verse 23 states we were under the law our schoolmaster And this was before the faith they heard of came.

G3:25 states after the faith, that faith they heard of by which they received the Spirit, did come, they were removed from being under the schoolmaster. They were no longer under the law.

What was the faith that came, which removed them from being under the law to be under something else? What event, a noun, took allowing The Spirit to be received? See romans 6 to understand the death of Jesus Christ removed them from being under sin, the law and put them under grace, that is his resurrected life.

Jesus said. John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

If there is no obedience of faith, if Jesus isn't obedient unto death even the death of the cross, the Spirit, the Comforter will not come.

Faith: But is I depart, am obedient unto death, I will send him unto you.

If I am obedient unto faith, (the death of the cross,) the Father will raise me from the dead and give me the promise of the Holy Spirit, and I will send him unto you.

Acts 2:32,33 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
 
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