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Monergists who are not Calvinists

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reformed, Jan 22, 2020.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God election is rooted into now being found in Jesus, dividing line here is on what basis did God chose to elect, by His own free will, or by us receiving Jesus thru faith?
    Did it always exist towards the saved, or start when we first believed?
     
    #101 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    If you are saying God's election is based on the elected being in Christ then this is Arminianism.

    Arminanism bases election on Christ (God, being omniscient, chose Christ and those who are in Christ as His "elect"). Calvinism views divine election as independent on man (God chooses of His own will, not random but not in accordance with anything but God's will).

    You seem to be closer to Reformation Arminanism than Calvinism (this is a second major issue where you side with Classic Arminianism over Calvinism). Have you considered that theology?
     
    #102 JonC, Jan 24, 2020
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    yes, and rejected, as again, the very basis on our salvation is found in the very will of God towards us !
     
    #103 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Both positions would affirm that God chooses to save us by placing us into Christ now, but again, what is the basis for that, his will to choose to save us period, or by us placing faith in jesus first?
    election then salvation or
    salvation causes election?
     
    #104 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That is Calvinism - the very basis of our Salvaiton is founded in the very will of God towards us in terms of divine election.

    Do you see how this is opposite of Arminianism (that the basis of our election and therefore the very basis of our salvation is Christ)?

    Calvinism holds that the saved are so by virtue of being chosen by the Father.
    Arminianism holds that the saved are so by virtue of Christ (being chosen by the Father on the basis of Christ).
     
    #105 JonC, Jan 24, 2020
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  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The basis of what saves us is the Cross of Christ, while how we get to that basis is by His election!
     
    #106 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
  7. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Look at that friends, although I had a whole thread on that. Just read and let that soak in. Calvinism is a system that has a man elect of God outside of Jesus Christ. Now tell me such a system is of God...
     
    #107 George Antonios, Jan 24, 2020
  8. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    you said "now". The point remains. In Calvinism you were first chosen outside of Christ.
     
    #108 George Antonios, Jan 24, 2020
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  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That is not quite honest. How many are saved on the basis of the Cross of Christ that were not elected? How many elected are not saved?

    See the point? The foundation of salvation in Calvinism is not Christ but election of the Father.

    Personally I disagree with both sides, but you at least need to deal with the logical conclusions of Calvinism since it is what you claim to hold.
     
    #109 JonC, Jan 24, 2020
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  10. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Right.
     
    #110 George Antonios, Jan 24, 2020
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  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    How can God then save lost sinners in a system dependent upon "free will: of lost sinners?
     
    #111 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
  12. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean "how"? There is no problem here.
     
    #112 George Antonios, Jan 24, 2020
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  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    ALL who are elected by the will of God to get saved by the Cross of Christ will get saved, as none who are not elect shall ever get saved....
     
    #113 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I am not the one to ask (I'm a compatabilist).

    You tell me @Yeshua1 . What is the ultimate difference (at the foundation) between the saved and the lost? Is it Christ? Or is it that the lost were not elected by the Father and the saved were elected?
     
    #114 JonC, Jan 24, 2020
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  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The ultimate basis would be God Himself determined just who would be the sinners that were to get saved by the Cross of Christ! Those would be the ones that He intended to now get saved....
     
    #115 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Exactly. That was not so hard, was it?

    That is what @George Antonios and I have been pointing out. The ultimate basis of salvation for the Calvinist is not Christ but the election of the Father. Christ comes in latter in the process.
     
    #116 JonC, Jan 24, 2020
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  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Both sides hold to election as the basis, its just how we were elected and why is the difference!
     
    #117 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Arminianism holds that Christ is the basis for election (God foreknows those who will be in Christ, who will believe).
    Calvinism holds that the Father is the basis for election (God elects and gives these to Christ).
     
    #118 JonC, Jan 24, 2020
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Which was Jesus stated to us in the Gospel of John!
     
    #119 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You believe that the Son gives the Son the sheep?
     
    #120 JonC, Jan 24, 2020
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