Money in Buildings or People?

[Chet]

Deut 12:30-32
and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, "How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same." You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods. See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.
NIV

 

[LP]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
all, wasn't Solomon's temple a pretty nice one?

You must have totally missed my point about OT Centrpital evangelism and NT centrifugal evangelism on the first page, which concepts Chet was also trying to get across in his own words.

[ March 07, 2002, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: LP ]

 

[HankD]

KJV Exodus 25:
17 And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof.
18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.

 

[swaimj]

I think the size of a church's building has to do with the indigenous nature of churches. A local church is, to some degree, a reflection of the culture in which it exists. Culture tends to push us to extremes of either extravagance in a building, or guilt over a nice one (why isn't this money given to the poor? critics will ask). The local church has the responsibility before God of striking an appropriate balance in this decision. The building should be nice and of quality, but not extravagant. I think Baptist churches excel in building buildings that are functional and attractive w/o undue extravagance and ornamentation.

 

[Oahu Freedom Fighter]

I am ashamed and embarrassed to admit that since being stationed over in Hawaii and looking for a new church that the actual look of the building mattered to me.

I live on Oahu, right near Honolulu airport and Hawaii just doesn't much space for churches and for some reason there isn't a traditional looking Baptist church over here. The churches we have visited and seen are like old storage buildings that have been fixed up a bit and made into churches. I guess since I grew up in such a beautiful church with gorgeous stained windows it is what I was looking for.

I can honestly say now that I have grown up, matured, or whatever else it could have been that the size and look of the building means nothing to me. The church we have visited the most is a rather old, non pleasant looking building that is in a rather rough area. It got so bad that in the parking lot, we have 2 men on parking lot duty for every service just to watch over our cars.

Being in the military and moving all over the place every couple years sure does make it hard to choose a church and call it your own as once you get use to it, you move.

Aloha and Mahalo!

John

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by javalady:
Grace Community Church (J. MacArthur's church) supports widows so they do not have to return to work. In this way women who are widows (including victims of unjust divorce) are able to stay home & raise their children for Christ, rather than having to go to work & put the kids in daycare. It's wonderful! And Scriptural.

Only widows 60 years and over were to be taken "into the number," if they were "widows indeed" and met certain requirements.

Some will say that Paul here is referring to deaconesses, and indeed he is. Widows weren't allowed to freeload. They had to be about the Lord's business if they were to live of the Gospel.

The younger widows were to marry.

Giving periodic aid and comfort to those in need despite their estate is one thing, supporting them is another, and there are very stringent guidelines.

[ March 08, 2002, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

[LadyEagle]

The younger widows were to marry.

Find some Godly men and it could happen!

Much easier said than done. A DECENT single man is hard to find...(especially over age 40)...a GODLY SINGLE man takes a MAJOR MIRACLE..LOL!
LOL!

 

[javalady]

One aspect of church buildings I think we conservative Baptists feel uncomfortable about is the aspect of beauty in the building. We don't want to seem ostentatious, so we almost make it seem like "homely" is synonomous with holiness! It doesn't have to be so. In fact, it shouldn't be so! God is the Creator; and He made some magnificent sights! (Here in CA, Yosemite is some of the closest to heaven that I can think of.) The bright colors of huge varieties of flowers. The sunrises & sunsets in their many hues. The interesting patterns & colors of different breeds of horses, or cats! The list is endless. God enjoys beauty, and made it for us to enjoy. There is no reason why we shouldn't enjoy beauty in our homes or church buildings, but we don't have to ignore the needy to do it!
Gathering together those gifted in art in the church family, there can be tasteful (and inexpensive) beauty: the color(s) of the walls, a reverent, joyful piece of artwork here or there (whether banner, painting, a handmade stained glass or plaque...),a bouquet of flowers and cleanliness all go to making a lovely (but not ridiculous) "home" for the church family.
As I said, while I have mixed feelings about a church having a building, if they do it can be done "multi-purpose" as one person pointed out. And it can be lovely, without neglecting the Gospel or the poor.
And that one brother is correct: there are many things that we small churches cannot do; at least the "normal" way we expect to do them. If a church can work together as a family more, there would be a lot more happening...even if it meant find new ways to raise money for a church bus (if that's the goal) or ministering more effectively to widows, etc. Too often I believe we expect to keep a 21st century life style, and still have all we think we want at church too. That is where much of this "menu" attitude about church comes in. [What flavor? Can I have mine my own way??]
True Christianity is based on love & sacrifice. We American believers don't "do" sacrifice too well, until we've gone through a few hard knocks.
Perhaps that is why God is allowing this country to go downhill so much...perhaps it will result in the purification of the Church! I pray so.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by LP:
You must have totally missed my point about OT Centrpital evangelism and NT centrifugal evangelism on the first page, which concepts Chet was also trying to get across in his own words.

Nope ... didn't miss it. I thought it was a bad point.

 

[LP]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LP:
You must have totally missed my point about OT Centrpital evangelism and NT centrifugal evangelism on the first page, which concepts Chet was also trying to get across in his own words.

Nope ... didn't miss it. I thought it was a bad point.</font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps, then, you could paste in several Scriptures that would indicate that the NT church was to primarily be about doing centripital evangelism....

[ March 08, 2002, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: LP ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by LP:
Perhaps, then, you could paste in several Scriptures that would indicate that the NT church was to primarily be about doing centripital evangelism....

I don't see anything about "centripetal" evangelism in the NT. In fact, I can't even find that word in Scripture any where. Furthermore, I am not sure why you want me to respond to a non-issue. That fact that you have a forum to float an idea does not validate the idea. IMO, it was an idea with no Scriptural basis.

First, you see no real evangelism mandate in the OT. There is a day coming when Israel will be the light to the Gentiles. That day has not yet come.

As for NT evangelism, the mandate of the Great Commission is to make disciples through church planting. The fact that "Baptize" is in the Great Commission testifies to the fact that the primary purpose of evangelism is the building of churches so that disciples can be built. You do not see any believers in the NT that are not a part of the local church. The goal of evangelism is worshippers who worship the Father in spirit and in truth. That worship takes place in the context of the local church.

Whatever you might mean by "centripetal" evangelism, I think it would be better to stick with biblical descriptions. The NT mandate is to build churches by building disciples.

 

[rsr]

There's no doubt that some churches go overboard on their buildings, emphasizing architecture at the expense of ministry. There are some beautiful churches and cathredals where, I'm sure, little worship really occurs.

That said ...

The church should be built to the ministry. I've worshipped in many places, from concrete block buildings to Colonial revival sanctuaries with spires. All are valid. What is not valid is ugly. God is a god of beauty; we create beauty to honor him as an act of worship.

This can be done in a cathredal or in a charming wood frame church. We cannot forget that we are influenced by our surroundings.

If church builders sometimes go overboard -- and they do -- I suspect that some minimalists are reveling in the opposite errors of pride of poverty or humility.

And I believe that the real problem is not the expense of the buildings, but in the expansionistic spirit that burdens congregations with debt that obscures their true missions. How many churches have borrowed heavily to build, then been under crushing debt when the pastor leaves or the ardor cools?

 

[LP]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I don't see anything about "centripetal" evangelism in the NT. In fact, I can't even find that word in Scripture any where....I am not sure why you want me to respond to a non-issue.

First, you see no real evangelism mandate in the OT. There is a day coming when Israel will be the light to the Gentiles. That day has not yet come.

Let's deal with just this first issue for now, since that is where any understanding must start:

Here are JUST A FEW Scriptures indicating God's methodology of Evangelism in the OT. In fact, this is THE MAIN MESSAGE IN THE OT.

As a side note, it is scary that one can be a Pastor and yet miss such primary things. Not just you, though, but MANY, MANY, MANY Pastors. But it is supposedly Biblical to keep the sheep in the congregation SILENT while giving clearly erroneous messages such as "there is no real evangelism mandate in the OT, except in the future."

DT 4:5 See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the LORD my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it. 6 Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people." 7 What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to him? 8 And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?

_______________________________________________

ISA 60:2 See, darkness covers the earth
and thick darkness is over the peoples,
but the LORD rises upon you
and his glory appears over you.

ISA 60:3 Nations will come to your light,
and kings to the brightness of your dawn.

_______________________________________________

ISA 66:18 "And I, because of their actions and their imaginations, am about to come and gather all nations and tongues, and they will come and see my glory.

ISA 66:19 "I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who survive to the nations--to Tarshish, to the Libyans and Lydians (famous as archers), to Tubal and Greece, and to the distant islands that have not heard of my fame or seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory among the nations. 20 And they will bring all your brothers, from all the nations, to my holy mountain in Jerusalem as an offering to the LORD--on horses, in chariots and wagons, and on mules and camels," says the LORD. "They will bring them, as the Israelites bring their grain offerings, to the temple of the LORD in ceremonially clean vessels. 21 And I will select some of them also to be priests and Levites," says the LORD.

_______________________________________________

ZEC 8:18 Again the word of the LORD Almighty came to me. 19 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "The fasts of the fourth, fifth, seventh and tenth months will become joyful and glad occasions and happy festivals for Judah. Therefore love truth and peace."

ZEC 8:20 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, 21 and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, `Let us go at once to entreat the LORD and seek the LORD Almighty. I myself am going.' 22 And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the LORD Almighty and to entreat him."

Here are some books you should get hold of:

Unveiled at Last by Bob Sjogren

Mission in the Old Testament: Israel As a Light to the Nations by by Walter C. Kaiser

(BTW, I utilize the same terms centriptal and centrifugal that Kaiser uses to explain in a word the more complex Biblical concepts.)

[ March 09, 2002, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: LP ]

 

[HankD]

LP,

You wrote...

&gt;&gt;As a side note, it is scary that one can be a Pastor and yet miss such primary things. Not just you, though, but MANY, MANY, MANY Pastors. But it is supposedly Biblical to keep the sheep in the congregation SILENT while giving clearly erroneous messages such as "there is no real evangelism mandate in the OT, except in the future&gt;&gt;

I understand what Pastor Larry is saying because I have a general understanding of his eschatological point of view. And as a general principle I agree with him. The Nation of Israel had a primary mandate of ATTRACTING the other nations while the Church has the Great Commission as their mandate.

In any case I am troubled by your ad hominem against Pastor Larry.

HankD

[ March 09, 2002, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[Ernie Brazee]

Another thread taken over by those trying to impress others with meaningless diatribe.

Ernie

 

[Dr. Bob]

LP - Please keep to the thread. If you want to go off on OT evangelism (whatever THAT has to do with church building) feel free.

Go to Theology Forum and start a thread. That is "first things first". Appreciate that - use your comment here to START a new thread if so desired.

 

[LP]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
LP - Please keep to the thread. If you want to go off on OT evangelism (whatever THAT has to do with church building)

What it has to do with it is exceedingly a lot. It is the core issue that makes the whole building tumble down, so to speak. But apparently this core issue is "meaningless diatribe" to some.

The OT instructions about building buildings are used by people today, mostly pastors, to justify their new building programs--you are aware of this, I am sure.

But if one understands the context of WHY in the OT those buildings were built, and often built lavishly, which was specifically with centripital evangelism in view, it then becomes illigitimate to use the OT passages to justify NT buildings, b/c the mode of evangelism in the NT is centrifugal. Or, as said above, "the Nation of Israel had a primary mandate of ATTRACTING the other nations [with the land, their buildings (temple), law and people], while the Church has the Great Commission [TO GUT] as their mandate." In the OT, the Money went to means of evangelism. In the NT, it went to the same. With almost ALWAYS under 10% overseas missions budgest in modern churches, and almost always &gt; 75% budgets for building and their maintenance, something is obviously very, very wrong.

And yes, it is very scary when A PASTOR uses those OT passages to justify practices of building modern church buildings, and forwards that historical Israel had no God-given role in evangelizing the surrounding nations. Because if one misses that, THEY ARE NECESSARILY MISSING THE WHOLE MAIN REDEMPTIVE THREAD OF THE BIBLE, which started in Genesis 12:1-2 and ends with the last word in Revelation.

The book "Unveiled at Last" I posted earlier makes that thread the plainest.

[ March 10, 2002, 03:23 AM: Message edited by: LP ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

LP,

I do not disagree that Israel was to be a light to the nations. My point was that you made an invalid inference out of that with regards to NT evangelism. YOu attack me because I "do not know something" when in fact I do know it; I believe you have misapplied it.

I did not use any OT passage to "justify" the building of NT buildings. I used the passage to illustrate that those who say nice buildings are always wrong and waste of money that could be spent elsewhere are saying in spite of biblical revelation and not because of it.

The excellence of our God should be shown in everything we do, even in our buildings. I have no use for people who do shoddy things in the name of "spending more on evangelism." It is pure rhetoric in most cases. I think most churches should spend more on evangelism. But until God's people turn loose of their money it won't happen. I would for us to spend more but I can't because we don't have it.

I simply don't see the main problem as the buildings for the most part.

 

[LP]

Pastor Larry:

Would you consider that, in some things, you are part of the problem with the church and not the solution? Would you consider that, whatever training for ministry you underwent, it lacked some very vital and key things?

Consider taking this course:

Perspectives on the World Christian Movement

You can take it on-line or at locations around the world. You can even take it for graduate or undergraduate credit.

Here are Christian leaders who have commented about the course: http://www.perspectives.org/endorsements/ldrendorse.html

Here are Christian organizations that have endorsed it: http://www.perspectives.org/endorsements/agencies.html

 

[Helen]

Back to the topic and amen a thousand times over to it.

Take a look at the buildings available to rent or borrow on a Sunday: almost all of them. So what do we do? Build more of them! It's bizarre. Small churches, by the way, will not have many widows to support (one or two?) and the simple physical help of the others can go a very long way towards providing her support with little need for great amounts of money.

California is NOT your 'conservative' sort of place, but the school buildings can still be rented out on the weekends for churches. Seventh Day Adventists and other Sabbatarian denominations are often happy to rent their buildings out on Sundays to other Christians. In large cities, there are often conference and lecture halls which are available on Sundays at very reasonable fees.

There are so many people who need help... so little red tape is really necessary...

A lot of our churches are not really churches at all. They are fancy Christian Country Clubs.

No.... I don't feel strongly about this....