You don't get it. I will not play your game. If you feel morally superior to me, good for you. I stated what I stated, and will leave the word twisting to those that are better than me.
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Montana is the Third State to Permit Doctor-Assisted Suicide
- Thread starter Magnetic Poles
- Start date
No, I want my questions answered. First, Bro Curtis makes a morally superior statement, gets asked a question, refuses to answer the question, and compains that others are playing a game, when he himself is the one playing a game. Not surprising from someone who accuses others on this board of lying just because he disagrees with their post. Bro Curtis often displays infantile behavior such as this.
John, my statement needs no clarification. You are the one forcing, or trying to force me to elaborate. Only someone trying to establish a moral high ground would say...
I certainly hope you don't ever have to encounter the suicide of a friend or family member who sufferred from a severe mental or clinical condition.
When I told you to offer evidence that depression is a license to sin, you said....
That's like saying "show me where having a cold is a license to have a runny nose".
Then you said later...
I never said it was.
I don't care what you want. Take your questions and pound sand with them. It seems everyone else understands what I said. And go ahead and call me whatever you want to. You often try to take both sides of an issue. You often consider your's the final word on most subjects. Go ahead. But your demand for answers makes me only laugh at you.
I certainly hope you don't ever have to encounter the suicide of a friend or family member who sufferred from a severe mental or clinical condition.
When I told you to offer evidence that depression is a license to sin, you said....
That's like saying "show me where having a cold is a license to have a runny nose".
Then you said later...
I never said it was.
I don't care what you want. Take your questions and pound sand with them. It seems everyone else understands what I said. And go ahead and call me whatever you want to. You often try to take both sides of an issue. You often consider your's the final word on most subjects. Go ahead. But your demand for answers makes me only laugh at you.
His IS the last word, don'cha know....At least he thinks so.
Of course, he could settle this all by showing us the scripture where God approves depression, or any other mental illness, a legit reason for suicide, or any other sin.
Marcia
Active Member
I was sorry to see Montana do this and I'm afraid more states will follow.
They've had problems in the Netherlands, which was the first country (I believe) to make doctor assisted suicide legal. People just feeling down could get doctors' approval and kill themselves. This was the case a few years ago - I haven't checked on it since.
I was working for a constitutional lawyer who dealt with euthanasia issues (at a pro-life organization) while Dr. Death (Jack Kervorkian) was hopping around helping people kill themselves. I learned a lot in that job about euthanasia and what it is as well as the dangers of allowing it.
They've had problems in the Netherlands, which was the first country (I believe) to make doctor assisted suicide legal. People just feeling down could get doctors' approval and kill themselves. This was the case a few years ago - I haven't checked on it since.
I was working for a constitutional lawyer who dealt with euthanasia issues (at a pro-life organization) while Dr. Death (Jack Kervorkian) was hopping around helping people kill themselves. I learned a lot in that job about euthanasia and what it is as well as the dangers of allowing it.
saturneptune
New Member
Brother Curtis said exactly what he meant. No one said that assisted suicide was not a sin. He is trying to get through your thick skull that there are many conditions that lead to such an act. He was not trying to excuse it.
If you think you are morally superior, then maybe you should join the Catholic Church, as they believe suicide is not only a sin, but an unforgiveable sin.
Despite it being a sin, sins are forgiven by Jesus Christ and His work on the cross. While you are sitting perched upon your high moral parakeet cage, have you ever walked in someone's shoes who suffers from one of these conditions?
Your two questions, one about those seeking assisted suicide, and the other about a spirit-filled Christian are word games. These people in this condition need compassion, grace and mercy, not a clinical analysis like you offer. By the way, while these people are sinning, so are you, everyday.
I have seen Brother Curtis's posts for years, and I find them edifying, gracious, and well thought out. I find your obnoxious, mean spirited, and without logic or common sense.
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You seem to have confused the two poster's here - Matt and Curtis.
You are attributing to each the other's position.
saturneptune
New Member
You do not have both oars in the water. Matt has one post on the thread that says "Shame on that state." Just like the other threads you try to debate in, there seems to be a pattern of saying things out of the blue that have no foundation. Maybe you need a hobby such as kissing IRS agents.
Now, if in your delusional world you meant to say Curtis and JohnV, then again, you are wrong. JohnV was trying to modify Curtis' posts by making him look very insensitive to people with mental conditions that lead to suicide, by implying that it is not a sin if they possess such. It is a sin no matter who commits it. That in no way takes away from the understanding, compassion, and help we should show such people before the act of suicide takes place. To play word games to make Brother Curtis look like someone he is not, is an outrage. It is nothing but playing word games. My guess is that JohnV could care less about these people anyhow, that it was just a game to push a hot button of Curtis. To say to Brother Curtis "I hope you never have to encounter anyone in your family with such a condition" was nothing but a mean spirited comment.
There is no doubt in my mind that Brother Curtis is a very compassionate person, and at the same time, does not appreciate people playing games with him, or put him in a light that does not exist. He stood up for the fact that, yes, it is a sin. To me, the other posters comments are irrelevent because they are not made to debate, but to harm.
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And no where in there or anywhere else did I say that being afflicted with clinical depression is a license to sin.
ANd neither did I say that assisted suicide was not a sin. There's no disagreement there. His comment referred to suicide in general, not assisted suicide specifically.
It's reasonable to ask him to clarify if he's referring to suicide in general, or to suicide assisted suicide specifically.
Yes. I lost a close friend to suicide. He sufferred from bipolar disorder for 30+ years. He lost his battle when committing suicide. BroCurtis will have us believe he was sinning when he took his own life. Yet anyone who has lived through that situation can tell you when BP takes over, there's little, if any, control a person has over it at the time.
Do you think calling other people liars is edifying, gracious, or well though out?
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You are welcome to substantiate your claim at any time - but of course can not.
So I will forgive your transgression despite your lack of remorse.
Yes, my error. I meant Johnv and Curtis.
I read JohnV's words as expanding on Curtis's words. Not as attributing anything to them.
Perhaps you need a few days off to cool down.
saturneptune
New Member
Your interpretation is flawed. Of course, what would you expect from anyone who would defend the actions of the IRS.
In medical history, doctors allowed people to die a natural death when they were beyond medical help at that time.
Modern medicine has allowed these same people to live, on machines, long past the former dates. Is it so wrong to return to the fact that people normally died when left to their own strengths or weaknesses? Is this suicide or killing? I think not. In fact, it may be sinful to keep some people alive.
Sometimes we are too quick with the "sin" label.
Cheers,
Jim
Modern medicine has allowed these same people to live, on machines, long past the former dates. Is it so wrong to return to the fact that people normally died when left to their own strengths or weaknesses? Is this suicide or killing? I think not. In fact, it may be sinful to keep some people alive.
Sometimes we are too quick with the "sin" label.
Cheers,
Jim
Being the person that you are you refuse to substantiate your accusations.
I invite you again to do so.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=63418
Not holding my breath though.
saturneptune
New Member
I have also lost a friend to suicide with the same condition. The fact is they were sinning when they committed the act. We all sin, and no one sin is better or worse in the eyes of God than another. Yes, they have very little if any control over their actions. Yes, the situation is very tragic, and there are no winners. Yes, it would have been my prayer that my friend and yours could have responded to whatever type of help that was available at the time, and hope their family and friends were being as gracious and kind as humanly possible. These actions in no way reflects on their salvation in any way. It all has to do with being a child of the Lord, through faith and grace in Jesus Christ.
From reading the posts, it seemed to me that you were trying to portray the other poster as insensitive to such situations, which is not true. Just because he thinks or in fact it is a sin does not make him any less compassionate or willing to help a person in that situation, or share the Gospel or show kindness to that person.
There are many things we do not understand as to why. Why is someone born with such a disorder that leads to such tragedy? I do not know. It is hard to think of a situation more tragic, because other things I could compare it to, that is being compassionate while it still being a sin, most of them, the people brought upon themselves, such as alcohol or drug addiction.
Maybe the crux of the question is, when someone is unable to control their actions, is it a sin? I can see where there could be an honest disagreement over that question, and there need not be ill feeling over it. I tend to think it is a sin, but does not mean it has not been forgiven, or that the person who committed it is any better or worse than me who sins everyday.
If I misunderstood your posts, and you were not trying to portray Curtis as something he is not, my apologies.
saturneptune
New Member
Please do, as it stinks, like your logic and posts.
Sorry to hear that. I'm sure you concur when I say that I don't wish such a terrible thing on anyone.
Yes, that is very true. Everyone is responsible for the actions s/he commits, but I guess what it comes down to is whether the person with BP or the BP illness should be ultimately responsible for the sin.
My friend was on regular medication for most of his adult life. When the meds were working, he was 100% productive and active. But as you probably know, there are just some point at which meds can be less effective, and sometimes ineffective. With him, those times were rare, but as he got older the times they happenned were severe. The last time, he knew it was happenning. He ordered everyone out of his office so that he would not end up hurting anyone else. He then took his own life. I recall his pastor at his funeral saying that he didn't kill himself, the disease he sufferred from took his life. I believe that's a very true and profound statement.
Indeed, praise God.
That's exactly the question I was wondering. Even though a person in such a state is responsible for their action, is their action necessarily a sin.
I most definitely could have worded my OP better. Even with the disagreement, I welcome the discussion and dissention. It is, after all, a debate forum.
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