Moral Law Verses Ceremonial Law

[Dr. Walter]

What makes your posts so difficult to deal with is not that they contain truth but you spread the playing field so wide with so many texts taken from so many different contexts that it makes it nearly impossible to deal with your posts unless you simply take one statement at a time and demonstrate your eisgetical errors. I am just expressing the frustration of trying to deal with so much material all at once.

Matthew 7:14-20 specifically is addressed to false teachers alone whereas Matthew 7:1-12 is explicitly addressed to real believers but not for the purpose of distinguishing saved from lost by fruits of salvation but for defining righteous versus unrighteous judgement. All believers are guilty of this and so it is not a distinguishing fruit of a lost condition versus a saved condition unless it is characteristically true of a person.

As it turns out - there is only one small area of Matt 7 limited to false prophets.


Matthew 7
1 ""Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
3 ""Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
4 "" Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?
5 ""You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

General truth – applicable to all.

7 "" Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
8 ""For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
9 ""Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone?
10 ""Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he?
11 ""If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!


General truth applicable to all.

The promise is conveyed to those who follow the instructions given so far - dealing truthfully with their own soul and their Savior. Knowing that God will provide the forgiveness we seek - and even all things "good".

12 ""In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

General truth – applicable to all.


Matt 7[/b]
13 "" Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 ""For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

General truth applicable to all – (the entire scope of saved vs lost)


1 Peter 4
17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
18 AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?


--


Matt 7
"Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for MANY, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and SHALL NOT BE ABLE" Luke 13:24


Notice that the command is NOT to God telling God "please STRIVE to get your chosen people to enter by the narrow gate -" nor is the command to a select group who “can only BE the elect”. (No such filter exists).



General truth “every tree” –

The lost and the saved are in one of the two groups.

Matt 7
21 "" Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.


Matt 7
22 "" Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 ""And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'



The scope again - is for EVERYONE. Applies to ALL the lost at the end if time and warns all the listeners of Christ at the time of Matt 7.



Ezek 18
24"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.




Matt 7
24 ""Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 ""And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26 ""Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 ""The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell and great was its fall.''


The scope is to EVERYONE

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Christ died, thus removing us under its dominion and condemnation
because we died "in Christ" when we were united LEGALLY "in him" through justification.

That much is true.

Thus all of it is abolished in Christ forever.

That much is false.

What is written upon the heart is what was written upon the two tables of stone.

That much is true.

Hence, for our Sabbartian friends, they must determine what is the SPIRITUAL PRINCIPLE behind the fourth commandment rather than the outward observance and external letter.

That much is obviously false.

Simple illustration.

5th commandment - you must really honor your parents in addition to loving them.
Sixth commandment - you must "really" not murder in addition to not hating.
Seventh commandment - you must "really" not commit adultry in addition to no lusting.

Christ expands the scope rather than abolishing and spiritualizing it down.

A not so subtle point I think.

Why, because even if they external observe the Sabbath they may be violating it competely because it is not the external form the but spiritual principle that determines proper observation.

"Remember the Sabbath day to Keep it HOLY" - so that means we have to "really" honor the Sabbath day as God defines it AND we have to first BE holy (saved saints) to KEEP it holy.

Again - I think I have only stated the obvious.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

As it turns out - there is only one small area of Matt 7 limited to false prophets.


Matthew 7
1 ""Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
3 ""Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
4 "" Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?
5 ""You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

General truth – applicable to all.

7 "" Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
8 ""For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
9 ""Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone?
10 ""Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he?
11 ""If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!


General truth applicable to all.

The promise is conveyed to those who follow the instructions given so far - dealing truthfully with their own soul and their Savior. Knowing that God will provide the forgiveness we seek - and even all things "good".

12 ""In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

General truth – applicable to all.


Matt 7[/b]
13 "" Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 ""For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

General truth applicable to all – (the entire scope of saved vs lost)


1 Peter 4
17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
18 AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?


--


Matt 7
"Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for MANY, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and SHALL NOT BE ABLE" Luke 13:24


Notice that the command is NOT to God telling God "please STRIVE to get your chosen people to enter by the narrow gate -" nor is the command to a select group who “can only BE the elect”. (No such filter exists).



General truth “every tree” –

The lost and the saved are in one of the two groups.

Matt 7
21 "" Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.


Matt 7
22 "" Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 ""And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'



The scope again - is for EVERYONE. Applies to ALL the lost at the end if time and warns all the listeners of Christ at the time of Matt 7.



Ezek 18
24"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.




Matt 7
24 ""Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 ""And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26 ""Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 ""The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell and great was its fall.''


The scope is to EVERYONE

in Christ,

Bob

Why would you take Scripture out of its context? Just to suit your own ideological purposes? Jesus plainly states that he is speaking of false teachers. He goes on and speaks of false prophets throughout the entire chapter. There is no break; nothing to make us believe otherwise except your opinion. I would rather believe Jesus than your opinion, and I think others would agree with me.

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
--The swine are the false teachers. (so are the dogs).

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
--This is where the real discourse on false teaching and false prophets starts.

I won't quote the rest of the passage right to verse 29, but there is not a single verse between verse 15 and 29 that doesn't refer to false teachers and their followers; followers of false teachings.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Bob,

You part and parse my statements from one another in order to build your case based upon part of what I said instead of my full explanations.

You conveniently chose to exclude the fact that the writing material is spiritual "the heart" and therefore, what is writen must be "spiritual" or a matter of principle rather than of "the letter."

Sabbath observance in its outward form in regard to any particular 24 hour period will one day be wholly supplanted by eternal worship. Therefore, in principle, it cannot be restricted to 24 hour obserance even now as the true principle is continual non-stop worship and that true priniciple will finally be eternally manifest.

What is written on the heart is the eternal principle not the limited or restrictions of the "letter." That which was written on stone was written for an unregenerated people in order to RESTRAIN them from further sin and so the consistent repetitious "not" found throughout.

What has been written on the heart is for the regenerate man and so there is no written negative on the heart but only the positive eternal principle which the New Testament defines the whole law as "love" and is manifest in GOING BEYOND the restrictive letter into the eternal principle.

The regenerate justified man is "dead" to the law in its entirety as to jurisdiction, penalty and form but alive to Christ to its eternal principle that is BETTER and EXCEEDS any written letter and defined obedience first in motive/intent and then in practice. For now, the practice is something BETTER than the seventh day "of the week."

That much is true.



That much is false.




That much is true.




That much is obviously false.

Simple illustration.

5th commandment - you must really honor your parents in addition to loving them.
Sixth commandment - you must "really" not murder in addition to not hating.
Seventh commandment - you must "really" not commit adultry in addition to no lusting.

Christ expands the scope rather than abolishing and spiritualizing it down.

A not so subtle point I think.



"Remember the Sabbath day to Keep it HOLY" - so that means we have to "really" honor the Sabbath day as God defines it AND we have to first BE holy (saved saints) to KEEP it holy.

Again - I think I have only stated the obvious.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Dr. Walter: Bob, simply look at the context where Jesus says this in Matthew 7:15-20! it is talking about false prophets. The "fruits" of false prophets are manifest in their false doctrine and life.

HP: Let’s see. What if one is an avowed liar……. or……. one claims they sin every day in thought word and deed? What would you say concerning those fruits Dr.? I thought that works, no matter how rotten and sinful the fruit, have no bearing whatsoever to do with ones standing before God.

Would you be so kind as to tell us how one can distinguish between (what more often than not is depicted as the normal Christian walk, i.e., a sinning believer)
a Christian and a false prophet if in fact the fruit can be the same sinful variety?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Dr. Walter: Christ died, thus removing us under its dominion and condemnation because we died "in Christ" when we were united LEGALLY "in him" through justification.

HP: Now for one that chastises BR for using too many Scriptures, it appears to me you need to support your stated notions with at least enough to make your points. At what point in time does Scripture state one ‘dies in Christ’ and where does it say we are “legally” in Him through justification?”

 

[DHK]

HP: Let’s see. What if one is an avowed liar……. or……. one claims they sin every day in thought word and deed?

Would you be so kind as to tell us how one can distinguish between (what more often than not is depicted as the normal Christian walk, i.e., a sinning believer)
a Christian and a false prophet if in fact the fruit can be the same sinful variety?

Matthew 7:15-16 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
--It is fairly simple. Jesus stated these "fruits" (doctrine) were those of false prophets. Why would you question the words of Jesus?

 

[Dr. Walter]

The bible does make a distinction between a professor and possessor of salvation or "tare" versus the true child of God. Justification never occurs alone but is always with regeneration and progressive sanctification. If there is no change there is no new creation. Our works have no bearing on our justification IF indeed we are those who are justified but they do witness we have been justified and play a significant role in our spiritual growth, use, reward, witness, joy, peace, assurance.

The justified man is a born again man and a born again man is a changed man who is in the progress of changing.

HP: Let’s see. What if one is an avowed liar……. or……. one claims they sin every day in thought word and deed? What would you say concerning those fruits Dr.? I thought that works, no matter how rotten and sinful the fruit, have no bearing whatsoever to do with ones standing before God.

Would you be so kind as to tell us how one can distinguish between (what more often than not is depicted as the normal Christian walk, i.e., a sinning believer)
a Christian and a false prophet if in fact the fruit can be the same sinful variety?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Romans 5:17-19 demonstrates that Christ acted in behalf of all those in Him as Adam did for all those in Adam. In Romans 6 Paul consistently uses the Aorist tense "died" denoting a completed action in the past. In Romans 4:9-12, 24-25; Paul uses the Aorist tense and in Romans 5:1-2 uses the Perfect tense along with the Aorist tense demonstrating a completed action in past time. Justification is a forensic term and has to do with our legal standing (Rom. 5:2) in Christ.

HP: Now for one that chastises BR for using too many Scriptures, it appears to me you need to support your stated notions with at least enough to make your points. At what point in time does Scripture state one ‘dies in Christ’ and where does it say we are “legally” in Him through justification?”

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Dr. Walter: The justified man is a born again man and a born again man is a changed man who is in the progress of changing.

HP: Are you suggesting that salvation is merely a process and not an about face? Are you suggesting that one still remains the same old sinner he used to be but is about to begin a 'process' of salvation? Faith has an object and a time and place where it is exercised. If the salvation you speak of is merely a process, I would tell you that until the sinner completes the process of a changed heart towards his sin he remains a sinner still. 2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Dr. Walter: Romans 5:17-19 demonstrates that Christ acted in behalf of all those in Him as Adam did for all those in Adam.

HP: You are misusing the Scriptures Dr. It says no such thing as “Adam did for all those in him.” That may well be your philosophical position but it is not stated as such by Scripture.

Dr. Walter: In Romans 6 Paul consistently uses the Aorist tense "died" denoting a completed action in the past. In Romans 4:9-12, 24-25; Paul uses the Aorist tense and in Romans 5:1-2 uses the Perfect tense along with the Aorist tense demonstrating a completed action in past time. Justification is a forensic term and has to do with our legal standing (Rom. 5:2) in Christ.

HP: The atonement is not properly thought of as a forensic proceeding. That is a theoretical position known as the literal payment theory and does not have its foundation in Scripture. Again, I understand your philosophical position, but I certainly do not believe such a position is supported by the Word of God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Matthew 7:15-16 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
--It is fairly simple. Jesus stated these "fruits" (doctrine) were those of false prophets. Why would you question the words of Jesus?

HP: Would one of those fruits of the Spirit be lying DHK, something by the way you claim all still do?

 

[Dr. Walter]

The term "salvation" is a broad term that covers a lot of territory. That territory includes a past tense complete action in regard to regeneration/conversion/justification. It includes a present tense ongoing incomplete action known as progressive sanctification and it is completed in the future tense glorification at the transformation of the body.

Since, I am a trichotomist in regard to the human nature I apply the past tense to the spirit of man, the present tense to the soul of man and the future tense to the body of man.

Howevever, the past tense is a completed action that totally changes us in at least two ways immediately. (1) New nature -inward man - created in true righteousness and holiness; (2) New position before God in Christ as justified. It is this past tense that secures entrance into heaven. Hence, this secures victory and the war has been won.

The present tense is the consequence of the past tense new nature and its progressing is dependent upon the Indwelling Holy Spirit working in us both to will and to do God's good pleasure (Philip. 2:13) according to what God has already determined (Eph. 2:10b) in keeping with the measure of faith and grace given unto every one of us.

The present tense is the battle ground where we either "redeem the time" or lose it forever for the cause of Christ and the glory of God (1 Cor. 3:11-15). Heaven and hell are not determined by these skirmishes because the war has already been won in regard to heaven because of our past tense salvation through Christ. What is won and lost here is "time" and rewards, usefulness, peace, assurance, witness, blessings and spiritual growth.

HP: Are you suggesting that salvation is merely a process and not an about face? Are you suggesting that one still remains the same old sinner he used to be but is about to begin a 'process' of salvation? Faith has an object and a time and place where it is exercised. If the salvation you speak of is merely a process, I would tell you that until the sinner completes the process of a changed heart towards his sin he remains a sinner still. 2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[billwald]

Congrats, HP, you started a thread that went to 10 pages and no one has changed anyone's mind about anything.

 

[billwald]

30 pages . . . it has been a long day. Have been celebrating Boy's Weekend with my male kids. Girl's weekend is later in the summer. It works out well in my family.

 

[Dr. Walter]

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. - Rom. 5:19

Who are the many that were "made sinners" by "one man's disobedience"? Answer all who are in Adam just as Paul later say "all in Adam die."

Who are the many "that SHALL many be made" righteous? Not all in Adam "shall...be made rightous" only "all in Christ shall be made alive".

The many made sinners by "one man's" act of disobedience is the whole human race because they are physically BORN sinners - everyone of them.

The many that "SHALL" be made righteous by "one man's" act of obedience are all those spiritually BORN righteous - everyone of them

HP: You are misusing the Scriptures Dr. It says no such thing as “Adam did for all those in him.” That may well be your philosophical position but it is not stated as such by Scripture.



HP: The atonement is not properly thought of as a forensic proceeding. That is a theoretical position known as the literal payment theory and does not have its foundation in Scripture. Again, I understand your philosophical position, but I certainly do not believe such a position is supported by the Word of God.

 

[Dr. Walter]

HP: The atonement is not properly thought of as a forensic proceeding. That is a theoretical position known as the literal payment theory and does not have its foundation in Scripture. Again, I understand your philosophical position, but I certainly do not believe such a position is supported by the Word of God. [/COLOR]

I never said a word about the "atonement" being forensic! I said that justification is a legal act and a forensic term.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Bill W: Congrats, HP, you started a thread that went to 10 pages and no one has changed anyone's mind about anything.

HP: Thank you Bill. Duty is mine, the results the Lord’s.

I hope your Father’s day is a blessed one!!:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Dr. Walter: I never said a word about the "atonement" being forensic! I said that justification is a legal act and a forensic term.

HP: Please show us where I stated you said it was. I simply made a statement. It is clear from your remarks you are treating the atonement ‘as if though’ it is/was a forensic proceeding, of which it is/was not.

 

[DHK]

HP: Please show us where I stated you said it was. I simply made a statement. It is clear from your remarks you are treating the atonement ‘as if though’ it is/was a forensic proceeding, of which it is/was not.

semantics!