Moral question

[InTheLight]

It depends, is my team down or ahead?

D'oh! You're team is down.

 

[Salty]

Agedman- let me give you an actual example.

I am a member of the Greater Syracuse Association of Evangelicals.
Last month the GSAE had a booth at a local neighborhood fair. (should be noted that many booths
at this fair are of extreme liberal thinking )

First - the sign on the booth simply said "GSAE" we purposely did not use the term "Evangelical" so as not to turn people off.
Second - within the booth was a sign that said "Psalms Reading" Several people thought it was a "Palm Reading. (which was the intention)

In the end - there were some salvation conversions and several people were directed to Bible Believing churches.

NOW - TWO QUESTIONS.

1) Was the GSAE WRONG for not using the full name of the organization?
2) Was the GSAE WRONG for trying to trick people into a "Psalm reading?

AGEDMAN - PLEASE - All I am asking is a simple "yes" or "no" for these two questions!!!

IF you want go go off on a tangent - fine - AFTER a simple yes or no.

 

[Rob_BW]

D'oh! You're team is down.

Then it's a long accepted and nigh hallowed tradition of the game.

 

[agedman]

It obviously was not. Again, God used a literal textbook example of deceit. There is absolutely zero debatability on that. So, your statement is wrong. ALL deceit is not viewed as a lie. Otherwise God lied.

"In his mouth" means that He would have deceived by lying. Huge difference.

You keep saying this. Yet no one is arguing this point. This is called a strawman argument, and is a form of deceit. So, ready to own up that deceit doesn't necessarily equal lying?

You are conflating things again. In whose spirit there is no deceit is obviously speaking of a lying person. It's easy to comprehend if you read it.

So, let's look at the evidence one last time:

Fact: God used deceit when the angels pretended to be men. A textbook example that you have not even tried to debunk yet, because there is no way to.

Fact: God cannot sin.

Therefore: If God used deceit, and God cannot sin, it is possible to deceive without sinning.

Fact: God used deceit.

Fact: God cannot lie.

Therefore: It is possible to use deceit without lying.

So, here's my prediction. Instead of debating this, you're going to use a type of deceit (again) by using the strawman that I am trying to justify sin, and that I am claiming that it is right to do wrong to do right. When in fact, I am not even addressing that at all. I am discussing the Holiness of God, and attempting to explain to you that if God does something, it's obviously not wrong. A point which you haven't been able to debate so far.

The obvious problem with your conclusion is you decide that God used deceit when in fact the Scriptures do not disagree with one another, and deceit is defined as a lie.

God does not lie, nor change.

 

[Sapper Woody]

The obvious problem with your conclusion is you decide that God used deceit when in fact the Scriptures do not disagree with one another, and deceit is defined as a lie.

God does not lie, nor change.

The irony is not lost on me here that you are accusing me of doing what you're doing. Obviously, scripture does not contradict each other. But it is a fact that God used deceit with the angels. So, when scripture says "no deceit was found" or something similar, it doesn't mean what you think it means.

It is not even arguable that God used deceit. He did. And you still haven't tried to explain that one away. What you've done instead, is deflect and dodge. Many times the Bible seems to contradict itself, yet it is our understanding of it that is conflicted. This is where you are sitting right now. In the face of what you deem as a contradiction, instead of searching it out and figuring out what it means, you're attempting to remain ignorant and cling to your stance.

God used deceit. Hands down. Textbook deceit. Now, we have to reconcile that with the verses you posited. Obviously, since God can't contradict Himself, we have to figure out what it means. I've laid out a pretty solid case, which you've casually tossed aside rather than confront.

The fact is, you can't refute what I'm saying, but you won't accept that you're wrong. So you'll continue this "shotgun" approach where you'll throw as many things at me that you can in the hopes that something will stick. Well, I've got some news for you; you are wrong. Plain and simple. The FACT is that God used deceit. This means that not all deceit is wrong as you claim, otherwise you would have to admit that God sinned.

Now, I'll even help you out. The ONLY way to assault my argument is to disprove that God used deceit. Spoiler: You can't.

 

[agedman]

Agedman- let me give you an actual example.

I am a member of the Greater Syracuse Association of Evangelicals.
Last month the GSAE had a booth at a local neighborhood fair. (should be noted that many booths
at this fair are of extreme liberal thinking )

First - the sign on the booth simply said "GSAE" we purposely did not use the term "Evangelical" so as not to turn people off.
Second - within the booth was a sign that said "Psalms Reading" Several people thought it was a "Palm Reading. (which was the intention)

In the end - there were some salvation conversions and several people were directed to Bible Believing churches.

NOW - TWO QUESTIONS.

1) Was the GSAE WRONG for not using the full name of the organization?
2) Was the GSAE WRONG for trying to trick people into a "Psalm reading?

AGEDMAN - PLEASE - All I am asking is a simple "yes" or "no" for these two questions!!!

IF you want go go off on a tangent - fine - AFTER a simple yes or no.

No, the signs were honest. The miss reading was not the printers fault.

No, the GSAE is not wrong for using there initials. That is not uncommon in the industry.

 

[agedman]

The irony is not lost on me here that you are accusing me of doing what you're doing. Obviously, scripture does not contradict each other. But it is a fact that God used deceit with the angels. So, when scripture says "no deceit was found" or something similar, it doesn't mean what you think it means.

It is not even arguable that God used deceit. He did. And you still haven't tried to explain that one away. What you've done instead, is deflect and dodge. Many times the Bible seems to contradict itself, yet it is our understanding of it that is conflicted. This is where you are sitting right now. In the face of what you deem as a contradiction, instead of searching it out and figuring out what it means, you're attempting to remain ignorant and cling to your stance.

God used deceit. Hands down. Textbook deceit. Now, we have to reconcile that with the verses you posited. Obviously, since God can't contradict Himself, we have to figure out what it means. I've laid out a pretty solid case, which you've casually tossed aside rather than confront.

The fact is, you can't refute what I'm saying, but you won't accept that you're wrong. So you'll continue this "shotgun" approach where you'll throw as many things at me that you can in the hopes that something will stick. Well, I've got some news for you; you are wrong. Plain and simple. The FACT is that God used deceit. This means that not all deceit is wrong as you claim, otherwise you would have to admit that God sinned.

Now, I'll even help you out. The ONLY way to assault my argument is to disprove that God used deceit. Spoiler: You can't.

Perhaps it would be wise, instead of just making the claim that God used deceit (lied) that you actually post the passage you desire to use as proof that God in fact lies.

 

[InTheLight]

Jesus raises Jairus's daughter from the dead. There is a large crowd outside the house. Jesus announces that the girl is not dead but only sleeps. Everyone laughs. Jesus tells the parents not to tell anyone what had happened.

Deceit?

 

[InTheLight]

Perhaps it would be wise, instead of just making the claim that God used deceit (lied) that you actually post the passage you desire to use as proof that God in fact lies.

Deceit <> Lying

Deceit can by lying, but it doesn't need to be.

 

[agedman]

Jesus raises Jairus's daughter from the dead. There is a large crowd outside the house. Jesus announces that the girl is not dead but only sleeps. Everyone laughs. Jesus tells the parents not to tell anyone what had happened.

Deceit?

Nope.

 

[agedman]

Deceit <> Lying

Deceit can by lying, but it doesn't need to be.

de·ceit
dəˈsēt/
noun

1. the action or practice of deceiving someone by concealing or misrepresenting the truth.
   "a web of deceit"
   synonyms: deception, deceitfulness, duplicity, double-dealing, fraud, cheating, trickery, chicanery, deviousness, slyness, wiliness, guile, bluff, lying, pretense, treachery; More
   

Yep, that sounds like god just not my God.

 

[InTheLight]

Nope.

Well, the people are going to find out the daughter is alive again, and not dead. "How did this happen?", people will ask. But the parents won't tell the people what happened because Jesus told the parents not to talk.

On direct orders from Jesus people are not to know how something as mind blowing as a person coming back from the dead happened.

 

[InTheLight]

de·ceit
dəˈsēt/
noun

1. the action or practice of deceiving someone by concealing the truth.

Yep, that sounds like the command not to tell how Jairus's daughter was raised from the dead.

 

[agedman]

Well, the people are going to find out the daughter is alive again, and not dead. "How did this happen?", people will ask. But the parents won't tell the people what happened because Jesus told the parents not to talk.

On direct orders from Jesus people are not to know how something as mind blowing as a person coming back from the dead happened.

People can ask, doesn’t mean not answering is using deceit.

Besides, there is no information of what you are assuming the people did.

 

[InTheLight]

People can ask, doesn’t mean not answering is using deceit.

Really?! You just posted that concealing the truth is deceit. That is exactly what Jesus told the parents to do--conceal the truth.

 

[agedman]

Really?! You just posted that concealing the truth is deceit. That is exactly what Jesus told the parents to do--conceal the truth.

I would like you to post the quote of where I stated “concealing the truth is deceit.”

I don’t find that in my posts.

Does God conceal the truth, certainly, just as He did to those Jews in the days of Jesus’s earthly ministry.

Matthew reports that the Lord said,

13“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

14“In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,...

Doing so is not a lie.

 

[Sapper Woody]

Perhaps it would be wise, instead of just making the claim that God used deceit (lied) that you actually post the passage you desire to use as proof that God in fact lies.

Firstly, there you go with your dishonesty again. This discussion cannot continue if you are going to keep doing the wrong thing by accusing me of saying something I'm not saying. It's dishonest, and quite frankly, means you have already lost any debate.

Fortunately, I'm more interested in helping your understanding than I am in winning a debate. So I'll overlook your blatant dishonesty in an attempt to help you out, and give you one last chance to discuss this honestly, instead of using underhanded tactics.

There's only one passage that we need to look at to see that God used a form of deceit. There are more, but we only need one to prove the point that God does indeed allow it. That is Genesis 19. Verse 1 states, "And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;" So, we see that two angels came to Sodom.

Verse 5 says, "And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them."

We see here that the angels were disguised as men. The angels caused the men of the city to believe that they were men and not angels by their appearance.

The definition of deceit is: "The action or practice of deceiving someone by concealing or misrepresenting the truth".
The definition of deceive is: "Cause to believe something that is not true."

These angels appeared as men. They were concealing the truth that they were angels, causing the men of the city to believe that the angels were men.

So, I have proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, that God uses deceit.

Now that we have established that as fact, we can tackle other questions. Is deceit the same as lying? Well, we know that God cannot lie. But He used deceit. Therefore, it is impossible that deceit is the same as lying.

Then, we look at the verses you posted earlier. We know that the Bible does not contradict itself. And we know that God used deceit. So, the inescapable conclusion is that you are using those verses incorrectly. It is the only plausible explanation.

So, again, the ONLY way to assault my conclusions is to disprove that the angels used deceit, which is impossible, as like I said, it is literally the textbook definition of deceit. I'll give you this last chance to answer honestly.

 

[InTheLight]

I would like you to post the quote of where I stated “concealing the truth is deceit.”

I don’t find that in my posts.

You posted the dictionary definition of deceit, which contains that phrase verbatim. I presume you posted the dictionary because you agree with it.

Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.

 

[agedman]

Firstly, there you go with your dishonesty again. This discussion cannot continue if you are going to keep doing the wrong thing by accusing me of saying something I'm not saying. It's dishonest, and quite frankly, means you have already lost any debate.

ok, you have accused me of lying.

That is merely a distraction, for such is unfounded.

However, for readers sake I will respond to this post only, and then I am done.

Fortunately, I'm more interested in helping your understanding than I am in winning a debate. So I'll overlook your blatant dishonesty in an attempt to help you out, and give you one last chance to discuss this honestly, instead of using underhanded tactics.

Again, for readers sake only do chose to continue.

There's only one passage that we need to look at to see that God used a form of deceit. There are more, but we only need one to prove the point that God does indeed allow it. That is Genesis 19. Verse 1 states, "And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;" So, we see that two angels came to Sodom.

Verse 5 says, "And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them."

We see here that the angels were disguised as men. The angels caused the men of the city to believe that they were men and not angels by their appearance.

The definition of deceit is: "The action or practice of deceiving someone by concealing or misrepresenting the truth".
The definition of deceive is: "Cause to believe something that is not true."

These angels appeared as men. They were concealing the truth that they were angels, causing the men of the city to believe that the angels were men.

So, I have proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, that God uses deceit.

First, wearing a disguise is not automatically deceitful.

Concealing the truth is not automatically deceitful.

If it were, every child would be condemned by wearing a mask when going trick or treating.

However, wearing a disguise can be used as a tool to do wrong.

According to Jeremiah the heart is deceitful above all things,

The angels of God have no such hearts.

They as a child wear a disguise because it is necessary to do the bidding of God.

Now that we have established that as fact, we can tackle other questions. Is deceit the same as lying? Well, we know that God cannot lie. But He used deceit. Therefore, it is impossible that deceit is the same as lying.

Then, we look at the verses you posted earlier. We know that the Bible does not contradict itself. And we know that God used deceit. So, the inescapable conclusion is that you are using those verses incorrectly. It is the only plausible explanation.

So, again, the ONLY way to assault my conclusions is to disprove that the angels used deceit, which is impossible, as like I said, it is literally the textbook definition of deceit. I'll give you this last chance to answer honestly.

I posted from the common dictionary on line source just exactly what deceit means.

That you would decidedly promote what is unfounded and accusing my posts as dishonest, then the readers will need to determine who posts with integrity.

It is unfortunate that you cannot simply state your case without the unfounded accusations.

So I am done.

 

[agedman]

You posted the dictionary definition of deceit, which contains that phrase verbatim. I presume you posted the dictionary because you agree with it.

Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.

In context, the definition shows concealing is partnered with “misrepresenting the truth.”


That you chose to post only half the definition on this thread in a vain attempt of distorting my posts, we are done here.