More about eschatology and preterism...

[agedman]

I still do not see third temple anywhere in the bible.

For got to include an idea of the size of Ezekiel's temple.

Next time you do a bit of in-town driving, a landmark, travel slightly over eight tenths of a mile from the landmark. That is about the length of one wall. It is perfectly square.

If you have ever been to the statue of liberty (or seen a picture), the height of one pillar is almost that height.

There is furniture in the other temples that are not part of this millennial temple. I can't tell if the furniture is part of it during the tribulation and then removed or not, just unable to find Scriptures that clarify the furniture is there. Not a big deal other than the imagery.

 

[prophecy70]

For got to include an idea of the size of Ezekiel's temple.

Next time you do a bit of in-town driving, a landmark, travel slightly over eight tenths of a mile from the landmark. That is about the length of one wall. It is perfectly square.

If you have ever been to the statue of liberty (or seen a picture), the height of one pillar is almost that height.

There is furniture in the other temples that are not part of this millennial temple. I can't tell if the furniture is part of it during the tribulation and then removed or not, just unable to find Scriptures that clarify the furniture is there. Not a big deal other than the imagery.

And to abide by Jewish law, Tools can't be used on site. So how long do you think this will take to be built? It took 40 years for the second temple to be built.

 

[agedman]

And to abide by Jewish law, Tools can't be used on site. So how long do you think this will take to be built? It took 40 years for the second temple to be built.

Not certain where you get the idea that modern tools cannot be used, just as in any former temple the modern tools of that day were used. I just don't see such in either Scriptures or traditions of the Jews.

Time of construction is relative to materials, techniques, availability of labor, and methods.
How long did it take to construct the replacement for the world trade center? Not long in comparison to the first.

 

[robycop3]

I cannot agree with you there Bro. There was only one fulfilment and that was by the Romans.

• Mark13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

One abomination. It happened in AD 66-70

No, it DIDN'T.

NO evil "prince" stood in the temple & declared himself to be God, nor did anyone set up a statue in the temple & supernaturally make it speak.

 

[robycop3]

Doesn't say in the temple. Jerusalem was the holy place.

You have to read all three together and not pick out the bits that suit your theory. Luke was covering the same conversation as M&M . Each added something that the others did not, so you have to read them all together.

• Luke 21: 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
• 21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
• 22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

The Jews understood that. When Herod invited one of the Roman generals to visit him in Jerusalem, there was almost a war started then. In the end the general came but his troops stayed away from the city. Calm was restored.

What was it that desolated Jerusalem in AD 70? The Roman armies.

Josephus wrote a brief history of Jerusalem. In it he said that Jerusalem had been conquered a number of times but only two desolations, the first by Neb and the Babylonians, the second by Titus and the Romans. Daniel tells us that the Romans would set up the AOD, I have posted it on here before. I will get a bit like Robycop3 keep repeating.

Please name another "the holy place" of those times & place.

 

[robycop3]

It's the same verse. How can YOU not understand that! He only had one discourse. Luke just explained it because his gospel went to more to gentile nations. The AOD is Jerusalem surrounded by armies. It's a parallel verse. Did Jesus speak two different discourses? Or did they just word it each different.

No, the AOD will be when the "man of sin" enters the temple with his deputy the false prophet, sets up his stayue in it, & declares himself to be Gos while the FP supernaturally makes the statue speak, & commands everyone to worship his boss & his boss' speaking statue.

 

[robycop3]

I agree, Martin.

The whole breakup of Alexander’s empire, the rise and fall of different authorities, and the events expressed in Daniel can certainly be far better shown with consistency then with an AD view.

The “Christian Courier” (a church of Christ publication) has a rather interesting article on this matter. It can be read here: Daniel's Prophecy of Antiochus Epiphanes

Disclaimer: I am not a supporter of some Church of Christ teaching. What is offered here is for review and comment, only.

Antiochus Epiphanes was NOT the "man of sin", as both jesus and paul indicated he hadn't yet come. But I DO believe he was a forerunner of the destruction that was to come upon Jerusalem and the temple. I believe the events of 55-70 AD were the accomplishment of the "days of vengeance" upon the Jews of jesus' generation, whom He held responsible for the murders of ALL righteous people up til that time, beginning with Abel, who lived & was murdered before any Jew existed.

And we know a MUCH-GREATER punishment befell the Jews a coupla generations later when Hadrian expelled them from their land, a punishment that lasted til the nazis fell in 1945.

And I don't care if anyone is a "dispy" or not because it's very-obvious that God dealt with people during the Old Covenent differently than he does since Jesus instituted the New Covenant. Those are two different "dispensations"

But one common thread of both dispies is God requires BELIEF, FAITH, WORSHIP, AND OBEDIENCE. And God is NOT thru with Israel, His "peculiar" people!

Psalm 135:4 For the Lord has chosen Jacob for Himself,Israel for His special treasure.

 

[robycop3]

One of the more puzzling aspects of this discussion is the early date thinking.

When historical evidence shows the date of John’s time on Patmos, the date of the emperor death that coincides with release of political prisoners, and the previous lack of mention by either Paul or Peter of the Revelation letter to the churches. These were churches started by Paul, why would he not have reacted unless he were already dead?

Paul was killed by nero no earlier that 67 AD.

 

[robycop3]

The opening verses of Revelation indicate that the events prophesied would take place shortly, for the time was at hand. Also the temple & Jerusalem are spoken of in Rev. 11. A 90s date doesn't fit.

The NT letter writers mention other writers, particularly deceivers. If John was writing when Paul was in Rome, Paul could be unaware of his visions - & possibly already dead.

Peter endorses Paul's letter, & may be referring to John's thousand years - an indefinite time allowed for repentance that ends when Jesus comes to establish a NH&NE. Peter considers the scoffers who question Jesus' prophecy of his coming - that would be the Olivet prophecy. take warning from the flood, & the certainty of the final day of the Lord. The scoffers of this generation would suffer swift damnation.

IMO Scripture endorses an early date, even if secular data suggest otherwise.

Jerusalem was at least partially rebuilt shortly after the Romans sacked it. And the only temples mentioned in the Rev are the one in the vision John was told to measure, and the temple in heaven. Neither, of course, were in Jerusalem, at least at that time.

 

[robycop3]

The opening verses of Revelation indicate that the events prophesied would take place shortly, for the time was at hand. Also the temple & Jerusalem are spoken of in Rev. 11. A 90s date doesn't fit.

The NT letter writers mention other writers, particularly deceivers. If John was writing when Paul was in Rome, Paul could be unaware of his visions - & possibly already dead.

Peter endorses Paul's letter, & may be referring to John's thousand years - an indefinite time allowed for repentance that ends when Jesus comes to establish a NH&NE. Peter considers the scoffers who question Jesus' prophecy of his coming - that would be the Olivet prophecy. take warning from the flood, & the certainty of the final day of the Lord. The scoffers of this generation would suffer swift damnation.

IMO Scripture endorses an early date, even if secular data suggest otherwise.

In 2 Thess. 2, Paul also warns against believing anyone who says Jesus had already returned, reminding them that the "man of sin" must come first. And Jesus Himself, in the Olivet Discourse, warned against believing anyone who says He would return quietly or in secret, saying His return would be visible and obvious as lightning.

As for the temple in the revelation, why would John have been told to measure an already-existing temple, whose measurements were well-known to the Jews? And we can imply in the context of his instructions to not measure the courtyard that this was to be a future temple.

 

[robycop3]

I don’t care.

We aren’t speculating about heathen worship places, only relating prophecy

Well, the Dome didn't then exist, but it does NOW, so it MUST be considered!

And also, some scholars from Hebrew University illegally, but successfully, explored under the Dome & several nearby areas, and have determined that the actual temple site was NOT where the Dome now sits, but BESIDE it. However, no Moslem would sit still now if a Jewish temple were to be erected beside their shrine!

However, the coming man of sin may broker a settlement to permit such a building, or the Dome might be destroyed by some over-zealous Moslem extremist group. (I believe Taliban ot ISIS could be capable of that.)

Also, there's nothing in the histories of the previous temples to suggest they enclosed the rock Jacob supposedly used as a pillow after his rassling match.

 

[robycop3]

I have just been reading an extract from on Amazon. The Final Prophecy of Jesus: Rather expensive at $62. Interesting he demolishes the idea of an early date for the Revelation and mentions Papias ca AD 100 as the earliest. Pre mil was most common theory, til Constantine

They overwhelmingly considered that the emperor and the empire were the let and hindrance.

The author, Oral E, Collins, is part of a fairly-new offshoot of Presbyterianism called "ECO"
(Evangelical Covenant Order). I wouldn't put much stock in it without fully knowing the ECO beliefs.

And obviously, no HUMAN could be such a let/hindrance, any more than any person coulda prevented Jesus' birth.

 

[robycop3]

I don't see the waqf bending over anytime soon. I believe Jewish rabbi's true to the law would never allow modern tooling on the site of the temple Mount. Correct me if I'm wrong on that one. And also the dome of the rock would have to come down. Nothing unclean can be that close to the temple.

Anyways there is not a verse in the Bible calling for a third temple. Until one is provided and not just implied. I do not see a need a third temple that would just be more rejection of Jesus.

There's not a verse in the Bible saying Jerusalem would be rebuilt after its destruction Jesus prophesied. BUT IT OBVIOUSLY WAS REBUILT! Jesus even mentioned it in further prophecy.

Same for the temple. Obviously, the AOD didn't occur in Herod's temple, so it will hafta occur in a future one.

 

[robycop3]

Lets all just think about this:

Tomorrow you wake up and some of the worlds population is missing, some churches are empty (if you believe in Pre-trib). Television News reports, the internet, reports of this everywhere and no one in this world still around wouldn't understand what happened? A quick google search about people disappearing.
People Disappearing -- The Rapture - Bible Prophecy - The Rapture
Then some man comes out of the wood works claiming to be Jesus and then 1.4 Billion Arabs and 6 million jews start holding hands?. And still no one questions any of this with google having 228,000 results about the rapture, And About 11,500,000 results about the antichrist doing this exact same thing, and at least two Secular movies that I know of off hand- This is the End And Left Behind (Nicholas cage) about the rapture. No world leader/authority power, anything, is going to say hey wait I've heard about this before? Then this man gets the Muslims to tear down the Dome of the Rock, so a third Jewish Temple can be built? All in a couple of years?

Ask any elderly Christian if he/she believed in his/her youth that the Jews would have a sovereign nation again. God's will is accomplished no matter what mankind does.

 

[robycop3]

Do not confuse Hollywood with the Scriptures.

Would it seem convenient and fitting for Christ to be born in the midst of the world ruled by the ungodly?

What manner of agreement with prophecy has been seen since my own father was born in 1907. Knowledge has exploded in every avenue of development.

Within my fathers life, man went from balloons to the moon.

I hand typed on a manual typewriter my first thesis paper, the second thesis just a couple years later was written on a 486 computer, now I use this iPad and arthritic finger. Research meant spending months in libraries to gather first hand accounts and more often travel. Now, more information is available then ever with a mouse that we used to set traps to kill.

Why would anyone not reasonably expect the complete destruction of the US and other events to not generate such conditions as to remarkably bring prophetic events into focus. It did a couple thousand years ago, and God had no problems.

I remember when last day writing and speeches were all consuming on college campuses. Hollywood joined in with all manner of alien invasion films. Even in this year they still crank out scenarios of one person standing out as the rescuer of all earth. How easily the one who manipulates will have in deceiving the nations.

People are forgetting how close Hitler came to being that "man of sin". I believe God allowed Satan to use him as a "dorerunner". Had Hitler done just one or two things differently, he woulda conquered all of Europe & Asia!

There are several things that woulda led to victory for Hitler:

Taking Dinkirk quickly as possible & forcing the BEF to surrender

Giving Rommel enough resources to conquer Egypt & the Suez Canal

Forcing Britain outta the war, THEN invading the USSR with his full military resources

Taking the Bosporus/Dardanelles

Quickly linking up with Japan

Praise the Lord that He caused Hitler's guiding demon to leave him as France fell! However, that won't happen with the coming "man of sin". Satan himself will indwell him, and no man will be able defeat him in war. Just as Hitler came from nowhere to do what he did, this man will similarly be a nobody who quickly gains power & will make Hitler seem like a naughty toddler in comparison.

 

[robycop3]

The verse you might consider is the Ezekiel passage giving the measurements and the fact that the prophecy of the Revelation obviously declares the presence.

Modern tools are not the problem. Contemporary tools to the building and upkeep were used from the time of the tabernacle.

The “dome” is not an issue considering what better way for the working of Satan to bring about remarkable “world piece” at the start of the tribulation than to settle Middle East problems. However, the Scriptures, IMO, are silent as far as how that all transpires, only that it does.

Besides, proximity was not an issue to the Jews concerning area evil at anytime. Remember the money changers?


It is not so much the popular writer’s concepts, for the Hollywood versions generally contain truth, but the amount maybe little. They are read and watched more for entertainment than truthfulness.

What matters is that Scriptures never fail.

The Father gave specific prophecy through The Word.

The Word became flesh and all that was spoken and done by The Word was dictated by the Father.

The Father gave specific prophecy concerning the end.

The Scriptures are completely reliable as presenting the truth from the beginning to the amen.

Exactly right, and those Scriptures have been fulfilled LITERALLY, EXACTLY TO THE LETTER so far, and the rest, including the eschatological events, will be fulfilled just-as-literally and exactly.

 

[robycop3]

Yes specific prophecy that already happened, And in the way Jesus said it would happen. The temple destroyed with in that generation.



How so? Thats what you are claiming is going to happen. Exactly what I said.



Source? Since the Temple fell in ad 70.



Never claimed that, What I claimed was people are going to understand what happened if half the church population disappeared.



Sorry, My bible does not mention this.

Since you say it's already happened, please tell us, WHO WAS THE "BEAST? wHO WAS HIS FALSE PROPHET?

What did the mark of the beast look like, & what did it do? Who issued it?

When was all life in the seas killed?

When was all green grass burned up?

 

[robycop3]

God destroyed the Temple in AD 70 when the Old Covenant, which had been rendered obsolete by Christ's death and resurrection finally vanished away (Hebrews 8:13). The Lord Jesus is the One greater than the Temple (Matthew 12:6), and the New Covenant Temple already has been rebuilt (John 2:19-22; Revelation 21:22). It is to Christ that we now come to offer our sacrifices (Romans 12:1).

We are never commanded eagerly to expect a new Temple, but we are commanded eagerly to expect the Lord Jesus Christ (Hebrews 9:28 etc.).

While the coming Jewish temple won't actually be a temple of GOD, as JESUS is left outta the equation, it'll be viewed as such by all Jews and most other people as well.

 

[robycop3]

I still do not see third temple anywhere in the bible.

You also don't see a prophecy that Jerusalem would be rebuilt after Jesus prophesied its destruction, which was accomplished, but it OBVIOUSLY WAS!

 

[robycop3]

And to abide by Jewish law, Tools can't be used on site. So how long do you think this will take to be built? It took 40 years for the second temple to be built.

The previous tools were built with the most-modern tools available.

And the coming temple is pre-fabbed. I've read the Jews have all the materials ready, and they obviously have a "blueprint".