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More liberty gone - NSA has YOUR records
- Thread starter Magnetic Poles
- Start date
After 9/11, I assumed such a program would be put in place and I am glad it was. After all, we are at war against the terrorist who are a threat and want to attack us.
This program has probably prevented further attacks. When at war, you must have good intelligence or you will pay the price.
This program has probably prevented further attacks. When at war, you must have good intelligence or you will pay the price.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Obviously, the federal government considers the Fourth Amendment to be null and void.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Obviously, the federal government considers the Fourth Amendment to be null and void.
Magnetic Poles
New Member
Which is why this is a clear violation of the law, and unconstitutional. I think that if SCOTUS were to review the Patriot Act, it would also be deemed unconstitutional, based upon the fourth amendment.
James_Newman
New Member
The biggest surprise is that the NSA discovered that everyone is connected to Kevin Bacon by six phonecalls or less. But seriously, the surveilance of citizens is only going to get worse and worse. Ideas such as 'constitutional' are taking a back seat to security concerns that seem to be largely fabricated. I don't think there is much that can be done other than for a bunch of godly men to lift up holy hands and pray for this nation.
Ummm...there is nothing here that describes records kept by phone companies. This information is not held in our house, nor does it belong to us personally.
The Fourth amendment speaks to "persons, houses, papers, and effects" which is not phone recorsd kept by the phone companies.
If a terrorist is calling you it becomes the business of the American peole to know about it. You do not get to have secret conversations and phone calls with terrorists.
KenH
Well-Known Member
But calling my brother or sister is not the business of the American people.
I will not accept President Bush's silly comments that because he says he can do something makes it legal nor that my rights are being protected because he says they are. This president no longer has any credibility with me - and I voted for him twice.
If the liberal branch of the Demopublican Party gets control of the control in this November's elections and it decides to impeach this president next year I am now to the point where I would tell them, "Give it a go".
I will not accept President Bush's silly comments that because he says he can do something makes it legal nor that my rights are being protected because he says they are. This president no longer has any credibility with me - and I voted for him twice.
If the liberal branch of the Demopublican Party gets control of the control in this November's elections and it decides to impeach this president next year I am now to the point where I would tell them, "Give it a go".
What's happening here is that there is some truth mixed up with a LOT of conjecture.
First, the NSA has functions other than those people think and they are for national security.
Second, no the technology does NOT exist for the government to track all phone calls without access to the phone companies. Certain things can be done with cell phones and the old microwave transmitters, but with new fiber, coorporation of the phone companies is required.
Third, if you claim to have manuals for the NSA then they are either put out for propaganda or they are fake. The real deal would be classified and if you did publish them you would most likely be in jail by now.
This is not violating operational security, but I want to ask a question:
Say that I work with military exploives every day. ..have access to TNT, and all sorts of bad stuff. Do you think the government should watch me, keep up with my info for security clearance? I do. I don't want people with access to this stuff not being watched. Do you? Would you like me to use my knowledge to hurt innocent people? What would stop me if not the government security agencies?
Phone conversations and e-mails are "keyed" with computers and 99.99% are completely ignored when they are checked by humans. This is routine and fast scanning, simply looking for terrorist activity. The people doing it spend all day going through thousands of e-mails and could care more for their next coffee-break than your milk order from your wife. Main tracking IS done and keyed on suspected terrorists.
We have NOT had a terrorist attack since 9/11 of any magnitude. Do you think these actions have been successful in their function?
Can the power be abused? Possibly, but with government officials who can't get along with each other, its highly doubtful. Our country with two parties is a wonderful check and balance system.
Besides, you still have your freedoms--you are talking about your government and what you think they are doing to you and you are not being rounded up at night and disappearing. But, you would go nuts if another terrorist attack occurred.
The NSA does NOT have the biggest Data-base, another government agency does and that's to make sure you pay your money to the government. Insurance and marketing companies have much more information on you. A private investigator can get more info on you than a federeal agent can in 90% of the cases. How do I know? I have a PI license and have access to these data bases. Did this as a part time job before I went to work full time again.
Does anybody see any common sense here?
[ May 12, 2006, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: Phillip ]
First, the NSA has functions other than those people think and they are for national security.
Second, no the technology does NOT exist for the government to track all phone calls without access to the phone companies. Certain things can be done with cell phones and the old microwave transmitters, but with new fiber, coorporation of the phone companies is required.
Third, if you claim to have manuals for the NSA then they are either put out for propaganda or they are fake. The real deal would be classified and if you did publish them you would most likely be in jail by now.
This is not violating operational security, but I want to ask a question:
Say that I work with military exploives every day. ..have access to TNT, and all sorts of bad stuff. Do you think the government should watch me, keep up with my info for security clearance? I do. I don't want people with access to this stuff not being watched. Do you? Would you like me to use my knowledge to hurt innocent people? What would stop me if not the government security agencies?
Phone conversations and e-mails are "keyed" with computers and 99.99% are completely ignored when they are checked by humans. This is routine and fast scanning, simply looking for terrorist activity. The people doing it spend all day going through thousands of e-mails and could care more for their next coffee-break than your milk order from your wife. Main tracking IS done and keyed on suspected terrorists.
We have NOT had a terrorist attack since 9/11 of any magnitude. Do you think these actions have been successful in their function?
Can the power be abused? Possibly, but with government officials who can't get along with each other, its highly doubtful. Our country with two parties is a wonderful check and balance system.
Besides, you still have your freedoms--you are talking about your government and what you think they are doing to you and you are not being rounded up at night and disappearing. But, you would go nuts if another terrorist attack occurred.
The NSA does NOT have the biggest Data-base, another government agency does and that's to make sure you pay your money to the government. Insurance and marketing companies have much more information on you. A private investigator can get more info on you than a federeal agent can in 90% of the cases. How do I know? I have a PI license and have access to these data bases. Did this as a part time job before I went to work full time again.
Does anybody see any common sense here?
[ May 12, 2006, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: Phillip ]
KenH
Well-Known Member
Ha! We have one party with two branches, both branches of which empower the federal government to get stronger day by day.
Anyone who trusts the federal government is not wise.
If this violation of the federal constitution was being perpetrated by a President Gore or a President Kerry I have no doubt the Bush apologists would be enraged about it. But since it's "their guy" violated the federal constitution they find all kinds of excuses for this travesty.
It is well past time for the Bush apologists to start using common sense and admit the truth about "their guy".
Magnetic Poles
New Member
No, but a couple of black military helicopters flew directly over my house today!
KenH
Well-Known Member
I see. So let's just toss the federal constitution into the trash can as long as Leviathan keeps us safe, eh?
Folks can trust in the President Bush all they want but I prefer keeping the federal constitution intact and in full force.
I have every confidence that the constitution can be enforced and we can keep our national security enforced at the same time. If we lose our constitution, then security won't mean much anyway. Al Qaeda will have won.
KenH
Well-Known Member
I see, Phillip. If I don't go along with "your guy" and trust him then you want me to leave the country.
Forget about it. This my country and I will advocate law and order regardless of how lawless the rogue Bush administration becomes.
Sorry, Phillip, but I won't go along with the "In Bush I Trust" mantra.
Forget about it. This my country and I will advocate law and order regardless of how lawless the rogue Bush administration becomes.
Sorry, Phillip, but I won't go along with the "In Bush I Trust" mantra.
You don't have to get mad Ken. I never said that the president that is in office is my favorite. I said that we have a two party system (not a one party system with two parts like you think). Don't you think there is a difference between Clinton and Bush? I didn't even say which one I support. So don't go reading stuff into my posts.
Let me ask you again. I handle explosives. Big amounts, I know how to use it. Would you rather the government not watch me so that I have the same rights that you do?
Let me ask you again. I handle explosives. Big amounts, I know how to use it. Would you rather the government not watch me so that I have the same rights that you do?
James_Newman
New Member
The lackluster alternatives don't excuse the actions of our government. The whole world is about to be plunged into darkness, thus saith the Lord in the book of Revelation. Why does Ken have to assent to everything Bush does in the name of the 'War On Terror?' What is it about Bush that requires Christians to fall in line behind him? Marriage amendment, anyone?
KenH
Well-Known Member
1) Just keep clicking your heels together and repeating "There's nothing like the "two" party system", "There's nothing like the "two" party system... Then maybe you'll end up in Kansas or wherever believers in big government go.
2) Since when do my phone records in calling my brother or sister equal explosives?
Have you ever considered the fact that the president requires congress to pass these laws? Vote them out if you don't want them. You voted them in? (Or at least the majority of Americans did.)
Tell me ONE example of a real life right that you have lost and what happened since Homeland security (besides a slow security at the airport.)
I ask you again, do you think the government should watch me, a person who works with explosives and knows how to use them? Why shouldn't I get the same rights of privacy you do? Why can't they trust me like they trust you? Why should Bush have a right to check into my background? Do you disagree with this?
Tell me ONE example of a real life right that you have lost and what happened since Homeland security (besides a slow security at the airport.)
I ask you again, do you think the government should watch me, a person who works with explosives and knows how to use them? Why shouldn't I get the same rights of privacy you do? Why can't they trust me like they trust you? Why should Bush have a right to check into my background? Do you disagree with this?
James_Newman
New Member
Why should I trust you to operate a barbecue grill? Don't you think all that combustible material could be used to commit an act of terror? Please fill out form 1040-BBQ Federal Permit For Hazardous Cookout.