PastorSBC1303
Active Member
ok fair enough.
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More school idiocy...
- Thread starter rbell
- Start date
Let me explain how this works for those of you who are quick to bash school personnel.
First of all, I agree that expulsion is too harsh, but suspension is not.
Here's why.
I had a boy in the 8th grade once who called me into the hall and pulled out a large knife from his jacket. His hand was shaking and he was very upset.
He said, "Ms. Kim, I forgot that my hunting knife was in this jacket. What do I do?"
We were the only ones in the hallway and I took the knife and slipped it into my sweater pocket and said, "Come with me."
I took him to the principal's office and told her what he said and gave her the knife. This was a good kid and not the type to cause trouble. She dismissed me back to class and kept him there a looooong time. I never told anyone why he was in the office. She gave him a lecture that scared the "hooey" out of him.
She did not expel him and I agreed, but I thought she should have at least suspended him, even though I loved the kid to pieces.
Here's why.
If word got out that she did not suspend him, then other boys who are NOT good kids would bring their knives to school with the intent to cause harm....usually vandalizing school property, but sometimes bodily harm.
All they would have to say in their defense is, "Well, I forgot that I had my knife in this jacket. I was going to turn it in the office later when I had recess, but I didn't get a chance."
Guess what. It did happen.
That same semester, one boy brought a knife and carved silly words on the bathroom stalls.
Two other boys, brought knives with the intent to have a knife-fight. Someone told me and I took one of them into the hall and asked him if he had a knife. He said, "Yeah..so what?"
I said, "What are you going to do with that knife?" He said, "I'm going to cut "Joe" with it if he messes with me today."
I told him that he was NOT going to cut anybody and that he WAS to give me the knife and he did. I sent him to the office. I called the other boy in the hall and we had the same conversation. I took his knife and walked with him to the office.
Both boys were expelled along with the one who vandalized the school with his knife.
All three mothers were understanding of school rules, but all three mothers wanted to know why the first boy who turned his knife in didn't get any punishment at all.
Rules are rules for a reason. Consistency is important for a reason.
Perhaps if this boy gets suspended, he will learn some responsibility.
You CANNOT under any circumstances allow boys to have pocketknives at any school anymore...not public, not private, not Christian.
Sorry...that's just how it is.
First of all, I agree that expulsion is too harsh, but suspension is not.
Here's why.
I had a boy in the 8th grade once who called me into the hall and pulled out a large knife from his jacket. His hand was shaking and he was very upset.
He said, "Ms. Kim, I forgot that my hunting knife was in this jacket. What do I do?"
We were the only ones in the hallway and I took the knife and slipped it into my sweater pocket and said, "Come with me."
I took him to the principal's office and told her what he said and gave her the knife. This was a good kid and not the type to cause trouble. She dismissed me back to class and kept him there a looooong time. I never told anyone why he was in the office. She gave him a lecture that scared the "hooey" out of him.
She did not expel him and I agreed, but I thought she should have at least suspended him, even though I loved the kid to pieces.
Here's why.
If word got out that she did not suspend him, then other boys who are NOT good kids would bring their knives to school with the intent to cause harm....usually vandalizing school property, but sometimes bodily harm.
All they would have to say in their defense is, "Well, I forgot that I had my knife in this jacket. I was going to turn it in the office later when I had recess, but I didn't get a chance."
Guess what. It did happen.
That same semester, one boy brought a knife and carved silly words on the bathroom stalls.
Two other boys, brought knives with the intent to have a knife-fight. Someone told me and I took one of them into the hall and asked him if he had a knife. He said, "Yeah..so what?"
I said, "What are you going to do with that knife?" He said, "I'm going to cut "Joe" with it if he messes with me today."
I told him that he was NOT going to cut anybody and that he WAS to give me the knife and he did. I sent him to the office. I called the other boy in the hall and we had the same conversation. I took his knife and walked with him to the office.
Both boys were expelled along with the one who vandalized the school with his knife.
All three mothers were understanding of school rules, but all three mothers wanted to know why the first boy who turned his knife in didn't get any punishment at all.
Rules are rules for a reason. Consistency is important for a reason.
Perhaps if this boy gets suspended, he will learn some responsibility.
You CANNOT under any circumstances allow boys to have pocketknives at any school anymore...not public, not private, not Christian.
Sorry...that's just how it is.
PastorSBC1303
Active Member
Scarlett,As I have said, I dont have that much of a problem with a suspension. 10 days may be a bit much, but I can deal with that. The talk of expulsion is what I disagree with completely. And I do think he and the young man you shared about should be admired for their honesty.
I told the boy that I appreciated him very much and the principal did too. I also told him that he had accept ownership for all of his actions, whether accidental or not.
He was a very good kid. That was about 10 years ago.
And you want to know something that will make you sick.
I shouldn't share this, because it is too depressing. Some kids you teach go on to greatness whether it be great parents and citizens or great college graduates and great contributors to society.
Some don't.
This boy who was so sincerely honest...who in all aspects of his life was one of my sources of joy and pride....he did not go on to greatness.
He, at the age of 20, became a registered sex offender.
Teaching is a calling and a joy, but it can also rip your guts out.
He was a very good kid. That was about 10 years ago.
And you want to know something that will make you sick.
I shouldn't share this, because it is too depressing. Some kids you teach go on to greatness whether it be great parents and citizens or great college graduates and great contributors to society.
Some don't.
This boy who was so sincerely honest...who in all aspects of his life was one of my sources of joy and pride....he did not go on to greatness.
He, at the age of 20, became a registered sex offender.
Teaching is a calling and a joy, but it can also rip your guts out.
PastorSBC1303
Active Member
Scarlett, that is sad. I had a similar experience recently. I was looking at a sex offenders website and decided to enter the address from where I grew up and it brought up a picture of a young man I played baseball with in High School. He was a good kid in school, but somewhere things went wrong. Very sad.
You know, Scarlett, that is at all levels. I taught for 25 years at the university...theological studies...and some of those kids didn't turn out so great either.
We try to give more than academics when we care, but it ends at the classroom door, I fear.
Cheers, and blessings. It remain a great calling.
Jim
We try to give more than academics when we care, but it ends at the classroom door, I fear.
Cheers, and blessings. It remain a great calling.
Jim
Scarlett,
You make good and thoughtful points, but I still have to disagree.
I think that there should be leeway specific to the facts of the case, rather than a statute with no room to maneuver.
That's one reason why we have jury trials in courts, so that the specific facts can be examined.
To me, it is absolutely key that he turned the knife in, that he turned it in as soon as he got to school, and that it was a Swiss Army knife.
The principal had leeway. It was his choice to recommend such a lengthy suspension.
Yes, we own our actions, but that includes the person with the power to punish not overreacting, and the punishment having a useful point. I'm not sure it has any point in this situation other than hurting his grades and the things that Daisy listed so well.
I will mention something else about how the system works, at least in OK. If he had been in 9th grade, instead of 8th grade, as the story says, a 10-day suspension IS, often, effectively being expelled. It is up to the individual school district in OK to interpret the state guideline of no more than 10 absences per semester. If it is that way in Indiana, then if he had already gone once to the orthodontist or once stayed home with strep instead of infecting everybody else, or maybe even gone on a school field trip, he could lose the whole semester.
My school district, when it suspends someone, has what I believe is a more workable concept. They are suspended from the regular classroom, but they go to school in a restricted classroom, doing their regular classwork, and they are not counted absent. Often teachers will drop by during their planning periods to give assistance.
Real true suspension and expulsion do occur, but not from what I can tell, from a mistake that the student tries to rectify as soon as possible.
Karen
You make good and thoughtful points, but I still have to disagree.
I think that there should be leeway specific to the facts of the case, rather than a statute with no room to maneuver.
That's one reason why we have jury trials in courts, so that the specific facts can be examined.
To me, it is absolutely key that he turned the knife in, that he turned it in as soon as he got to school, and that it was a Swiss Army knife.
The principal had leeway. It was his choice to recommend such a lengthy suspension.
Yes, we own our actions, but that includes the person with the power to punish not overreacting, and the punishment having a useful point. I'm not sure it has any point in this situation other than hurting his grades and the things that Daisy listed so well.
I will mention something else about how the system works, at least in OK. If he had been in 9th grade, instead of 8th grade, as the story says, a 10-day suspension IS, often, effectively being expelled. It is up to the individual school district in OK to interpret the state guideline of no more than 10 absences per semester. If it is that way in Indiana, then if he had already gone once to the orthodontist or once stayed home with strep instead of infecting everybody else, or maybe even gone on a school field trip, he could lose the whole semester.
My school district, when it suspends someone, has what I believe is a more workable concept. They are suspended from the regular classroom, but they go to school in a restricted classroom, doing their regular classwork, and they are not counted absent. Often teachers will drop by during their planning periods to give assistance.
Real true suspension and expulsion do occur, but not from what I can tell, from a mistake that the student tries to rectify as soon as possible.
Karen
The purpose of rules is to discourage negative behaviour and encourage positive. Forgeting something is a mistake, intentionaly trying to take a weapon to school is negative.
On the other hand turning the weapon in when he could have concealed it all day with 99.999% chance of not being caught is a positive behaviour.
If you punish the positive behaviour your will discourage it. The rule should be anybody CAUGHT with a weapon will be ..........
The boy was not caught he turned it in, so as not to bring it to school. He made a mistake followed by a very positive action. He should be praised for his positive action. Maybe a stearn warning speach followed by a good job for doing the right thing.
They do want to teach kids to do the right thing, right.
On the other hand turning the weapon in when he could have concealed it all day with 99.999% chance of not being caught is a positive behaviour.
If you punish the positive behaviour your will discourage it. The rule should be anybody CAUGHT with a weapon will be ..........
The boy was not caught he turned it in, so as not to bring it to school. He made a mistake followed by a very positive action. He should be praised for his positive action. Maybe a stearn warning speach followed by a good job for doing the right thing.
They do want to teach kids to do the right thing, right.
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
I am sorry but...
In My Most Adamant and Strongest Opinion
That the one size fits all rule is a bunch of hooey...
And, the ability for some minor non-intelligent life forms to force that policy on the school system only goes to show that *some* schools have no more intellegence than the lowest common denominator...
Anyone can apply rules rigidly accross the board...
It takes a real leader to apply the intent and spirit of the law...
The *real* intent of the one size fits all is so that no one is allowed to excel above another...
No one is allowed to be considered more obedient or a child of better character...
Everyone is reduced to the lowest common denominator...
And we have the nerve to wonder what's wrong with our schools and society???
In My Most Adamant and Strongest Opinion
That the one size fits all rule is a bunch of hooey...
And, the ability for some minor non-intelligent life forms to force that policy on the school system only goes to show that *some* schools have no more intellegence than the lowest common denominator...
Anyone can apply rules rigidly accross the board...
It takes a real leader to apply the intent and spirit of the law...
The *real* intent of the one size fits all is so that no one is allowed to excel above another...
No one is allowed to be considered more obedient or a child of better character...
Everyone is reduced to the lowest common denominator...
And we have the nerve to wonder what's wrong with our schools and society???
I don't wonder. It's because we look for reasons NOT to enforce rules.
Contempt for law enforcement is a hallmark of the party of Ted Kennedy, Al Sharpton, Chuck Schumer, Jesse Jackson and the Clintons.
Michelle Malkin
How many who disagree with the suspension have actually worked with kids, on a daily basis, for more than a weekend ?
I worked with juvinile delinquents for nine years. I support the suspension.
Michelle Malkin
How many who disagree with the suspension have actually worked with kids, on a daily basis, for more than a weekend ?
I worked with juvinile delinquents for nine years. I support the suspension.
Curtis,
I do work with kids as well.
I agree that no punishment whatsoever sends the wrong message...but a severe punishment sends an even more wrong message.
And there's a lot of real estate between suspension and expulsion. Curtis, I'm probably near you in my view here.
On a broader scope...
"Zero-tolerance" policies are some of the stupidest ideas to creep into our educational systems. They reduce administrators--people who supposedly are at the policy-making level--to mindless myrmidons who can't tell the difference between Midol and meth.
If I'm paying a school honcho $140K or more per year of my tax dollars, I would hope they could use common sense. I realize that some do...but then others make the news.
I see a bunch of problems on both sides of the coin...there are more parents than ever who reflexively defend their criminal kids, who need the ten-ton hammer of the law to come down on them. But on the other side, there seems to be a good bit of arrogance on the part of many public school administrators and school board members...they seem to think that it's simply not possible that they have a bad rule in place. They will offer a knee-jerk defense of a rule or rules that need some serious overhauls...and they will often impugn anyone who questions them on the matter.
In short: it's a mess.
I do work with kids as well.
I agree that no punishment whatsoever sends the wrong message...but a severe punishment sends an even more wrong message.
And there's a lot of real estate between suspension and expulsion. Curtis, I'm probably near you in my view here.
On a broader scope...
"Zero-tolerance" policies are some of the stupidest ideas to creep into our educational systems. They reduce administrators--people who supposedly are at the policy-making level--to mindless myrmidons who can't tell the difference between Midol and meth.
If I'm paying a school honcho $140K or more per year of my tax dollars, I would hope they could use common sense. I realize that some do...but then others make the news.
I see a bunch of problems on both sides of the coin...there are more parents than ever who reflexively defend their criminal kids, who need the ten-ton hammer of the law to come down on them. But on the other side, there seems to be a good bit of arrogance on the part of many public school administrators and school board members...they seem to think that it's simply not possible that they have a bad rule in place. They will offer a knee-jerk defense of a rule or rules that need some serious overhauls...and they will often impugn anyone who questions them on the matter.
In short: it's a mess.
I understand the points you made and I agree, for the most part, with them.
Think on this, however....
I dare anyone on this thread to put themselves in a confined office with an angry set of parents who believe that their child is above the law in the first place and explain to them the "spirit of the law."
Most of theses kids today who get in trouble are doing so NOT because the "idiot schools" are responsible for it.
These kids are learning at HOME that they are not accountable for any actions that they take because Mom and Dad will overrule anything that the teacher, babysitter, youth pastor, Sunday School teacher, or principal says anyway.
Zero tolerance policies, which aren't perfect, come from DECADES of parents wanting each and every cotton-picking rule bent and/or waivered for their children.
I have taught since 1983. Since about 1995, I have seen a gross increase in parents' outright refusing to admit that their children should be "confined" to rules.
This is my first year in a Christian school and I am finding, to my dismay, that it is no different.
It's almost absurd.
And folks, you can have your opinions until the cows come home about our school systems, but what I have just told you is the reality of the problem.
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
When the letter of the law and the spirit of the law find conflict, ammendments to the law come in handy.
Bro. Curtis
I have worked with adult inmates for 10 years mostly gang bangers. I have learned that you always reward behaviour that you want to continue and punish behaviour that you want to stop. If an inmate turned in his shank to me or told me where to find it his punishment would be considerably less sevier then if I found it on my own.
I have had inmates come back from there inmate jobs with a tool or razor they forgot in their pocket and turned it in to me imediatly upon returning. The punishment is very, very much less then if I find it. WHY because I want them and other inmates to know that if it happens in the future (and it will) turning it in is the route to go with out a doubt.
If I punish an inmate today for turning in a tool he forgot in his pocket. Why would the inmate who forgets next week turn it in to me. Then I have a tool (weapon) on my unit.
KeeperOfMyHome
New Member
Well, he walked out of the house with his pocket knife. That wasn't breaking the rules. Obviously, he was far enough from home and close enough to school that he could not take it back home. Had he taken it into school and hid it on his person or in the locker, then he certainly would have been guilty of breaking the rules. Instead he did the responsible thing and turned it in. Another (possible) option would have been to have his parent come pick it up after he arrived at school.
What we teach kids by punishing them in a way I think in unfair is to hide their mistakes or not admit when they've done something wrong, even if it was a mistake.
I hope it all works out in the end.
Julia
My first thought is you are crazy to trust inmates, especially gangbangers. Perhaps that guy who turns in a razor he "forgot" is just playing you.
My second thought, inmates don't "forget" what's in their pockets.
My third thought, if inmates are returning from jobs with tools in their pockets, somebody is dropping the ball by not inventorying what they are given, and not securing them after the work day.
To sum it all up, it doesn't sound, to me, like a well run place.
And I know all about rewarding good behavior. I just don't consider breaking rules good behavior.
I still am secure, and stand by the suspension.