More Than a Few Questions for Baptists

[Elk]

Dear Grant,
Pardon me, but I did not mean to twist your words around. I am responding from a view point of not your responses, but of time spent listening to EWTN and the large Italian Catholic forum on line. These issues are frequently discussed on line, and this is what I am responding to. My opinions come from study and careful attention to what is happening and what the priest themselves have spoken online and through various other Catholic documentations that are on line, plus local conversations with Catholics and Priests. Furthermore, if you will look at your cutting and pasting of my words of my first message, you will see that you are the one who flippantly remarked about them and made it sound like they were of no validity. But I believe they are.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Hello Elk --

We have a lot of pinch hitters in this forum for Master Carson. May humble Grasshoppa now take turn?

How can a Priest forgive sins and tell the confessor to do this or that and be forgiven?

How could God, pure spirit being, become man in flesh? This is the same principle by which the priest forgives sins. You see, in the Sacraments, Jesus makes Himself really, truly, and physically present that He may be among His people and minister to them. The priest is only the tool in His hand, just like a pen held in the hand of an author. The pen does not do the writing in the purest sense of the word, it merely acts as the hand of the author is upon it.

I have some other questions for you...
I have often heard that when people pray to Mary for intercession, that she always points to Jesus. Why does it occur then the next day, that they are still praying to Mary for intercession?

Well, I can't speak for others, but I pray to Jesus directly, and I also ask the intercession of the Blessed Mother and the saints (both those on earth and those in heaven). Is it wrong to continue to go to the Blessed Virgin asking for Her to continue in Her intercession? Or is it wrong to keep asking because you have not had an answer yet? I don't think so personally. But that is my opinion, and besides, I'm not a Marian scholar anyway.

Do not get me wrong, I believe strongly about Communion (the Eucharist) in that the Bible does not say anywhere that it is a "symbolic" act, but why if this is the most important focus of the Catholic church, why is it closed to only members?

Because symbols convey reality (Hebrews 8: 5). That is why the Catholic service developed along the lines it developed along. Just as Moses was told to be very careful in developing the worship in the desert because it was a picture to the world of the reality of Heaven, so also we SHOULD be careful that our worship follows the heavenly pattern found in Revelations.

Now St. Paul was quite clear about what the Eucharist is and represents:

1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

Now....can a Protestant really claim to be "one" with us if he does not hold to the truths of the Catholic Faith? And if he is not one therefore, he should not partake of that Bread which is the very symbol of our oneness in Christ according to the above verses. It is portraying a lie (and incidentally, there are MILLIONS of Catholics who also should NOT be partaking every Sunday and who are doing so to their damnation -- we call them "liberals" and "rebels" in the Church, and they ought to just get out -- NOW!!)

I am not against it, but my complaint is the denying of it to anyone who is not a Catholic and signed up, and to the fact that it seems that if one is not getting communion frequently, he/she no longer has God inside of them. When I examine the teaching of the Eucharist, this is what I have noticed show up in the view of the Eucharist. Thereby, the focus is more on communion than on the Holy Spirit living inside of us.

Ah ha ---BUT ---

The Holy Spirit is NOT Jesus!! Keep the persons of the Blessed Trinity SEPARATE!!!

Now...WHO does the Bible say is our righteousness? It is Jesus!! He is our righteousness according to Scripture.

Now I am sure that you are laboring under the same idea I had when a Protestant i.e., that your "righteousness" comes from God's legal declaration of you being righteous because of Jesus. But that is not scripturally or covenantally so. Our righteousness comes through our organic and real UNION with Him, not by some piece of paper declaring us "legally justified" as Protestantism states.

We always have God inside us, but are we righteous?? You see, that is the question. Merely having the Holy Spirit within does not make us righteous, for that is not the "job description" of His indwelling. He is called "the paraclete," "the seal," "and the earnest of the inheritance" in scriptures. But He is not our righteousness in the sense that we do not have to become righteous ourselves.

Adoption into the family of God as a child means that we are expected to grow in Christ likeness. It means we are to become more and more righteous by the practical practice of righteous deeds and the eschewing of evil. And to do this, we need to have a real and living union with the One Who IS righteous -- Christ Jesus the Lord.

Think of the marriage covenant. When man and woman come together, they produce a new life. When we, as the Bride of Christ, are entered into by our loving Lord as our Husband, that union produces a new life also -- THE VERY LIFE OF GOD. And it is a real and new life separate from the old life of the flesh. Every experience of Christ's entering into us in the Eucharist renews and invigorates and grows that life within us, making us more like Him.

But in this term of studying and conversing, I discovered that some Catholics do not really rely on Scripture as Truth.

Well, then, they are in trouble if they don't because without the Scriptures, they cannot defend the Catholic Faith. I can defend everything I believe from the Scriptures and it was them that pointed me to the Catholic Faith as a Protestant. That priest needs some work.

It is all about our relationship with God/Jesus. Our doctrinal knowledge will not save us, only Jesus saves us.

EXACTLY!!!

And that is what the Eucharist is all about. It is Jesus coming down to be among His people and unite with them in love that He might lead, and guide and love and help them.

BEEEEAUTIFUL!!!

So, who are the real disciples of Jesus?

Those that love.

Won't argue that a bit!!

Cordially in Christ through the Theotokos,

Brother Ed

 

[Carson Weber]

Wow!.. 21 replies and still, no one has come up to bat.

These questions were composed by my roommate Rob's close and personal friend, Stephen K. Ray, who converted from Baptist to Catholic with Rob in April of 1994 at Christ the King parish in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Steve used to be an Anti-Catholic Baptist, and now he writes Catholic books and authors video materials - http://www.catholic-convert.com - I'll mail his conversion story free of charge to any non-Catholic Christian who wishes to receive it. Email me your address.

There, now that we have gotten the legal hoolah out of the way, perhaps we could have a Baptist take a swing at these.

Dr. Bob, you're a Baptist. Step right on up.

 

[Elk]

Dear Ed,

You said, "The Holy Spirit is NOT Jesus!!"


I guess we have absolutely nothing left to talk about because we will disagree from here out.

You might want to take a second look at Isaiah 9:6.

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GraceSaves:
Now, I think it'd be neat if people could answer the questions.

Folks have been doing that ever since the list was first compiled.

http://www.russ.org/new2/question.html

Neat, huh?

</font>[/QUOTE]Sorry, Clint, but the answers to the questions, identical to the ones Carson asked are laughable!

If I have the time, I just may rebut the rebuttal in that link...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Lord, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things that I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
enjoying one moment at a time;
accepting hardship as a pathway to peace;
taking, as Jesus did, this sinful world as it is,
not as I would have it;
trusting that you will make all things right
if I surrender to Your will;
so that I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with You forever in the next.
Amen.

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Wow!.. 21 replies and still, no one has come up to bat.

Well, Clint gave the following link:

http://www.russ.org/new2/question.html

Which had me staring at it in utter amazement at the replies. You and I will obviously agree that these replies are totally inadequate.

I may reply to them, unless you wish to do so...

These questions were composed by my roommate Rob's close and personal friend, Stephen K. Ray, who converted from Baptist to Catholic with Rob in April of 1994 at Christ the King parish in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Steve used to be an Anti-Catholic Baptist, and now he writes Catholic books and authors video materials - http://www.catholic-convert.com - I'll mail his conversion story free of charge to any non-Catholic Christian who wishes to receive it. Email me your address.

I think I have it already, but if you will, send me a copy, please! I love Steve Ray to death, having most of his material, and having personally conversed with him via E-mail a time or two. (My E-mail address is available in my profile or you have it already in your address book.)

There, now that we have gotten the legal hoolah out of the way, perhaps we could have a Baptist take a swing at these.

Dr. Bob, you're a Baptist. Step right on up.

I won't hold my breath waiting, but I sure will be watching his replies!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages
call me blessed. (Luke 1:46-48)

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by Elk:
Dear Ed,

You said, "The Holy Spirit is NOT Jesus!!"


I guess we have absolutely nothing left to talk about because we will disagree from here out.

You might want to take a second look at Isaiah 9:6.

Elk,

Do you believe in the Trinity? If so, who are the three members?

 

[GraceSaves]

Elk,

Since you seem so convinced that priests forgive sins...

CCC 1441
Only God forgives sins. Since He is the Son of God, Jesus says of Himself, "The Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercies this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven." Further, by virtue of His divine authority, he gives this power to men to exercise in His name. (John 20:21-23).

If you attempt to argue once more that priests forgive sins, then you are fooling yourself, and the truth is not in you. It doesn't get much more crystal clear than that.

 

[Jude]

Are there any Baptists on this board who think they can answer every one of these?

The honest answer is, of course, 'no'.

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by Jude:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Are there any Baptists on this board who think they can answer every one of these?

The honest answer is, of course, 'no'. </font>[/QUOTE]Good to see you posting again, Jude!

I'm glad you are back! You have a voice of gentleness we could all imitate, especially ME!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


I believe in God,
the Father Almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son,
Our Lord;
who was conceived by the holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died,
and was buried.

He descended into hell;
the third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
sitteth at the right hand of God,
the Father almighty;
from thence He shall come to judge
the living and the dead.

I believe in the holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

- The Apostles Creed -

 

[Elk]

Dear Mike S,
Greetings.
You might like to look up John 5:43 and John 10:25 in the Greek. Please look it up, because some of these Bibles out there just water it down so completely, you will be hardpressed to even know what I am talking about.
Do, you believe that the Father's Name is Jesus?
(Meaning, Savior?)
Isaiah 43:10-11

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
Elk,

Since you seem so convinced that priests forgive sins...

CCC 1441
Only God forgives sins. Since He is the Son of God, Jesus says of Himself, "The Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercies this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven." Further, by virtue of His divine authority, he gives this power to men to exercise in His name. (John 20:21-23).

If you attempt to argue once more that priests forgive sins, then you are fooling yourself, and the truth is not in you. It doesn't get much more crystal clear than that.

But we see in your catechism

Confession is the avowal of one's own sins made to a duly authorized priest for the purpose of obtaining their forgiveness through the power of the keys.

As stated above, the absolution given by the priest to a penitent who confesses his sins with the proper dispositions remits both the guilt and the eternal punishment (of mortal sin).

Also, we the church claiming to be the source of Christ's forgiveness.

In an indulgence in fact, the Church, making use of its power as minister of the Redemption of Christ, not only prays but by an authoritative intervention dispenses to the faithful suitably disposed the treasury of satisfaction which Christ and the saints won for the remission of temporal punishment.[38]

Maybe your church doesn't teach that priests forgive sins, but it seems to say that confession to a priest is the only method of absolution.
It also seems to say that only by confession to a priest are sins forgiven.

Doth mine eyes deceive ?

 

[GraceSaves]

Curtis,

Yes, your eyes doth deceive you. No where did it use the words "only" that you ascribed to it.

An act of perfect contrition provides completely the forgiveness of sins, mortal or not. However, for the Catholic, who may or may not do this, confession is still important because it is important to hear the words of Jesus' forgiveness spoken into our ears and to reconcile ourselves with the Church, which is the Body of Christ.

Again, you added the word only, not the Catechism. I would also appreciate it if you'd put paragraph numbers in your quotations so that myself and others can easily reference those. Thanks!

 

[Bro. Curtis]

The quotes are from New Advent.

Second, it clearly states that absolution is given by the priest. Is absolution different from forgiveness ?


Is the priest necessary at all, in the process of forgiveness ?

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
The quotes are from New Advent.

Sorry, but you said:

But we see in your catechism

And then you went into the quotations. That is why I assumed that - cause ya said it.

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
wSecond, it clearly states that absolution is given by the priest. Is absolution different from forgiveness ?

Absolution is the "absolving" of sins, that is, utterly removing the sin from the sinner, and with it the eternal consequence that sin causes (damnation).

This is what you quoted:

As stated above, the absolution given by the priest to a penitent who confesses his sins with the proper dispositions remits both the guilt and the eternal punishment (of mortal sin).

What does it say? It says "the absolution given by the priest," but it does not say "absolution is only possible through a priest." Yet, you assert the latter.

It's quite clear, brother.

In Christ's Holy Name,

Grant

EDIT: You added a new question in there after I responded. Tricky, tricky.

Is the priest necessary at all, in the process of forgiveness?

Was it NECESSARY that Jesus Christ died on the cross? No; God being all powerful, He could have saved us another way. But in His Divine Wisdom, He desired to save us in this way, and we praise Him for it! In the same manner, a priest is not wholly necessary for the receiving of the forgiveness of sins, but Christ in His Divine Wisdom, desired to do it in this way, and we praise Him for it! I have already posted the passage where Jesus Christ breathed His Spirit onto the disciples and told them to forgive sins in His name, and also to retain in His name. He apparently thinks this is how it should be done, and so we follow that. Is it the only way? No, and I've already said that mortal sins can be forgiven through an act of perfect contrition, however, it is not the OPTIMAL way, which Jesus Christ instituted for our benefit.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

So then the priest does the absolving ?

I ask again, can we be forgiven without ever seeing a priest ?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I'm confused...

Is the New Advent site an official RCC site ? Does the teaching I see there differ from the official catechism ?

 

[GraceSaves]

Curtis,

slow down, brother. You edited your post and then posted twice after like I had avoided it. I have edited my post to answer your new question. See above.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

And only by the confession sacrament, as taught by the RCC, are we to fully enjoy the blessings of forgiveness, correct ? Any other way is kinda selling ourselves short ? Jesus really wants us to see a priest, but will accept us if we don't ?

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
And only by the confession sacrament, as taught by the RCC, are we to fully enjoy the blessings of forgiveness, correct ? Any other way is kinda selling ourselves short ? Jesus really wants us to see a priest, but will accept us if we don't ?

Curtis,

You yourself have said that you wished to remain civil, but these questions are obviously trying to cause trouble, because unless you have seen me say "any other way is kinda selling ourselves short" or anything like that, the only thing you do is create division. I have NOT said any such thing, so to say that is NOT civil.

Are you denying that Jesus Christ had intentions behind His words and actions? I don't think so.

Is the Sacrament of Reconcilliation the optimal way to receive the forgiveness of sins? Yes, because mortal sins offend God, and the Church is the Body of Christ, so reconcilliation needs to be made with it as well.

For those who do not know or understand this, God does not deny them the forgiveness of sins, and sins can be forgiven through perfect contrition (that is, perfect love for God, despising of the sin committed, and avowal to not commit it again). Catholics can enjoy this also, but understand that it is also necessary to bridge that gap with the Church, by confessing to the priest (the representative of the Church) and hearing the forgiveness of Christ spoken into our ears.

All you're having me do is repeat myself by asking the same questions in different ways.