billwald said:
Are you saying that they don't reject the doctrine of the Trinity?
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Mormon and Jehovah's witness
- Thread starter zrs6v4
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Are you saying that they don't reject the doctrine of the Trinity?
David Michael Harris
Active Member
Amen, I would say both are Christ less. That's up to argument though.
They are both massive heresies.
Christianity is about knowing Christ. He may bring them out of that error though.
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Marcia
Active Member
I don't think anyone is saying we should try to convince anyone without the gospel.
Marcia
Active Member
The reason JWs are hellbound is not because they don't believe in hell (they believe in annihilation, which unfortunately, some evangelicals have embraced) but because they reject the biblical Jesus. Their main error is denial of the diety of Christ and that Jesus is co-eternal and co-equal with God.
Marcia
Active Member
Utlimately, in the Mormon view, no one suffers eternal condemnation.
There is a very good site on Mormon beliefs run by a friend of mine, Bill McKeever. It's Mormon Research Ministries. He's been doing this for over 30 yrs.
Go to www.mrm.org and look at the menu at left. Loads of info!
Here's the page on Mormon salvation - very informative:
http://www.mrm.org/salvation
The page on Jesus Christ:
http://www.mrm.org/jesus-christ
ccrobinson
Active Member
In looking through some old files, I found a document I had saved called, "Questions that Jehovah's Witnesses do not like", which I downloaded off an old Usenet group a few years ago. Here are a couple of good questions I found.
Q. The New World Translation translates John 1:1 as "... and the Word was with God and the Word was a god." In Deuteronomy 32:39, God says "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand." How can the Word (Jesus) be a God if God himself says there are no other gods?
Q. In Revelation 22:12-13, Jesus Christ says of himself, " I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Isaiah 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." How can both Jesus Christ and God be the first and the last since there can only be one first and one last?
Q. The New World Translation translates John 1:1 as "... and the Word was with God and the Word was a god." In Deuteronomy 32:39, God says "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand." How can the Word (Jesus) be a God if God himself says there are no other gods?
Q. In Revelation 22:12-13, Jesus Christ says of himself, " I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Isaiah 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." How can both Jesus Christ and God be the first and the last since there can only be one first and one last?
My favorite is this:
JDF: Jehovah's Witness #1, do you worship Jesus Christ?
JW#1: Of course I do.
JDF: OK. JW #2, is Jesus Christ God?
JW#2: Of course not!
JDF: So, JW#2, does it bother you that your friend is worshipping a being other than God?
And they usually just stand there and stutter for a few minutes. Then, while they're still trying to recover, I just ask them "If you were to die today and stand before God to be judged, do you believe you would go to Heaven? Why or why not?" Normally, I would ask them "would you go to Heaven or to Hell", but since they don't believe in Hell, that's just going to lead to another argument that's going to be a distraction.
I also like to ask them if they're one of the 144,000.
More than that, they categorically reject an obvious core scriptural doctrine. Denying Christ's deity, the reject the core scriptural doctrine of Jesus saving us from our sins.
I just talked with a Mormon about the trinity and that was pretty awesome. It seems to me that their view must limit them to saying there are 3 Gods.
They claim that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit are all one in unity, which in a sense is true, but they reject the fact that God is One in essense. This presented a huge problem and as I was trying to help the missionary understand that this was Scriptural and a vital truth he got freaked out and ended the conversation. We had a long drawn out discussion of me repeating myself in every way imaginable, but it was really good.
They claim that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit are all one in unity, which in a sense is true, but they reject the fact that God is One in essense. This presented a huge problem and as I was trying to help the missionary understand that this was Scriptural and a vital truth he got freaked out and ended the conversation. We had a long drawn out discussion of me repeating myself in every way imaginable, but it was really good.
Marcia
Active Member
As far as I know, all cults deny the Trinity. If you deny the Trinity, this will undermine Jesus (and the Holy Spirit as well). Jesus then becomes just a man, another god, a lower god, a "divine being," or an angel. This view, of course, undermines or destroys the true gospel. One thread unraveled and it all comes apart.
But what God? They believe that you too can be a god if you do everything their doctrine and covenants tells you to do. God was just a man that has since been elevated, you see. God has a wife and she gives birth to millions of spirit babies that come to earth to learn and grow - get my drift? You cannot even DISCUSS God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit with them. THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE LIVING GOD, creator of everything!!
I think it is pretty awesome that it is impossible to deny the trinity. Most seem to do so because logically it seems like a contradiction, but it is a paradox. If you are true to Scripture you can't avoid the truth of the Trinity.
Yea I somewhat understood that terrible belief. I think it is also sad that only in the doctrines and covenants are those beliefs. In other Words, they have no foundation to stand.
I dont know if I agree that I can't teach them about God and His gospel. It may be completely different from their so called gospel, but I really dont know what else to do other than pray and keep telling them, even if they believe in a million gods.
David Michael Harris
Active Member
FR7 Baptist
Active Member
I thought about this some more and I think that a person who, like the Mormons and JWs, who does not affirm the deity of Christ can not be saved. That is one of the most central doctrines of the Christian religion and I think it rises to the level that it must be affirmed for salvation.
Yea I have been thinking a little to. I find the modern world a very scary place.
back in the OT days people served idols with names like Baal and Asherath, but now almost all idols are named Jesus (as far as false god types of idol worship). This is a very scary thing to think about
I also would say that if your are not directly teaching the trinity, as a true believer, you are still coming in the name and power of the only true God. Therefore your Gospel can be affective where others (in the normal situation) cannot. This means that as you preach, whether the words are few or many, God can work miracles. This would explain why a non-educated true believer can lead someone to Christ just as easily as a 50 yr elder.
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>>I think it is pretty awesome that it is impossible to deny the trinity. Most seem to do so because logically it seems like a contradiction, but it is a paradox.
No, it is an antinomy. <G>
>I thought about this some more and I think that a person who, like the Mormons and JWs, who does not affirm the deity of Christ can not be saved. That is one of the most central doctrines of the Christian religion and I think it rises to the level that it must be affirmed for salvation.
Unless it turns out that we are wrong.
No, it is an antinomy. <G>
>I thought about this some more and I think that a person who, like the Mormons and JWs, who does not affirm the deity of Christ can not be saved. That is one of the most central doctrines of the Christian religion and I think it rises to the level that it must be affirmed for salvation.
Unless it turns out that we are wrong.
I am not going to act like this thought hasn't entered my mind, but when it does and we pray and seek the Word, then the truth begins to stand alone by itself. Speaking of the trinity, there was a time where this haunted me. I spent honest prayer time and didnt just leave it at that. I then went to the word and read through it and over and over read the verses to let them say what they said. To be honest it didnt take long to "begin" to see this truth, but the more I learn and grow, the more I see that the Trinity is the truth and is what God's Word says.
Now, I realize that all of the billion religions including Mormon's say the same thing. That they know and are confident. I have found that they really haven't let Scripture speak and that their confidence is not the kind of foundation that Scripture alone can give. This confidence must be personal and between God and man alone, having nothing to do with people and their confidence. When I look out and see all the false hopes I cant help but to be overwhelmed with the impossibility of the odds against me being of the few. This is not what God has told us to look at, but to Him and Him alone. He gives great confidence and by just telling people "I know I'm right" doesnt go very far. It's more like, when your all alone, do you think your right about God? Then it doesn't matter what people think.
Then comes the factor of self-deception, how do you know that you haven't deceived yourself like the millions of other people have? How do you know that you aren't among those trusted with truth who have not run in vain? I would then ask, where do these questions lead you? do you take them and tell yourself its ok until the burden leaves, or do you go back to prayer and to God's Word until you have been delivered.
I think assurance comes when you look at the heat and see that you have grown and not withered away or pushed away the trial, but endured through it by faith in the Lord. This is not a self-esteem issue.
There are some deep things that cannot be explained. I personally am convicted that the Spirit is the One doing all of this and the One bringing me through it and the One I rely on in the middle understanding that in and of myself I cannot battle alone. Therefore without God I am in big trouble and have nothing.
Im glad you said that and I just thought I'd talk through my response to the comment (whether you seriously meant it or not). Anyone disagree, why?
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Let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness"Genesis" Then I heard the voice of Yahweh, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for US?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!" " Isaiah 6:8
"These things Isaiah said because he (Isaiah) saw His (Christ's) glory, and he spoke of Him (Christ)." John 12:41 Isaiah SAW JESUS like the apostel John did in the book of Revelation.
Jesus of the New Testement is Jehovah or Yahweh in the Old. The trinity is who God is and when we try to explain Him in human terms we end up with cults like JW's an Mormons.
"These things Isaiah said because he (Isaiah) saw His (Christ's) glory, and he spoke of Him (Christ)." John 12:41 Isaiah SAW JESUS like the apostel John did in the book of Revelation.
Jesus of the New Testement is Jehovah or Yahweh in the Old. The trinity is who God is and when we try to explain Him in human terms we end up with cults like JW's an Mormons.
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Phew! :smilewinkgrin: glad I haven't quoted any Muslims.