Mormon Theology Questions

[charlieninerzero]

My Community has a high Mormon density and I find myself involved in theology talks regularly. I am in a discussion with a President of Mormon Missionaries. If anyone has any insight to the following please contribute. Their position has been all Christian denominations are false and they are the only true church lead by a Mormon Profit who's revelations override the revelations in the Holy Bible and revelations of previous Mormon Profits. His points of argument are the following:

* There has been an apostasy and a need for a new church.
* They are an extension of Christianity.

We have discusses the need for salvation, different layers of heaven, Mormons will become gods, etc?. Our arguments result in our definitions of terminology and additional revelation Mormons have that Christians do not have.

My defense:

* Jesus is not dead but is still alive. Jesus is the head of the church. Jesus is still here and never left. Therefore apostasy never happened.
* If they are an extension of Christianity then how come for 1800 years Christians did not believe the way the Mormons do. And I continue to point some examples out.

My scripture defense:
Bible versus:
Heb 1:1 In many ways and in various ways of old, God spoke to the fathers in the prophets;
Heb 1:2 in these last days He spoke to us in the Son, whom He appointed heir of all; through whom He indeed made the ages;
1Ti 2:5 For God is one, also there is one Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 7: Jesus is the head of the Melchizedek Priest Hood and we do not need another.
Hebrews 8: We have a new covenant and the old way of works is not needed but has faded away.

My questions are : Do we need an authority figure with the authority of divine inspiration? If no then how would I present it. It is obvious Mormons are not a true extension of Christianity but how would it be presented? It would seem that I have ample substance for an argument but they don't buy into it. These guys are sly and will ponder on it for weeks before coming back with an answer.

 

[tyndale1946]

Personally I wouldn't waste my time and I've never wasted mine talking to Mormons. First of all you are outnumbered and they are using the Book Of Mormon in the argument. If you want to debate both of you use the Bible. I've talked to Mormons and JWs and find they use their Bible because they sure don't know mine. What could possibly be gained by arguing with these men and what is your reason for it? I would stick to my own theology and turn a deaf ear to theirs. Others may have a different approach but I'm only giving you what I would do if in your shoes... Brother Glen

 

[Primitive Baptist]

There is no way to convince a Mormon his or her theology is wrong because he or she is not even using the same book you are! The Mormon can defend false teachings because he or she is getting them out of a false book. You cannot teach someone something from the Bible when he or she has another book which overrides the authority of the Bible. Pray that if the Mormon you are talking to is a child of God that God would save him (not eternally) by the Gospel. That is the purpose of the Gospel; to save the believers!

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by charlieninerzero:
Their position has been all Christian denominations are false and they are the only true church lead by a Mormon Profit who's revelations override the revelations in the Holy Bible and revelations of previous Mormon Profits. His points of argument are the following:

* There has been an apostasy and a need for a new church.
* They are an extension of Christianity.

We have discusses the need for salvation, different layers of heaven, Mormons will become gods, etc?. Our arguments result in our definitions of terminology and additional revelation Mormons have that Christians do not have.

My defense:

* Jesus is not dead but is still alive. Jesus is the head of the church. Jesus is still here and never left. Therefore apostasy never happened.
* If they are an extension of Christianity then how come for 1800 years Christians did not believe the way the Mormons do. And I continue to point some examples out.

My scripture defense:
Bible versus:
Heb 1:1 In many ways and in various ways of old, God spoke to the fathers in the prophets;
Heb 1:2 in these last days He spoke to us in the Son, whom He appointed heir of all; through whom He indeed made the ages;
1Ti 2:5 For God is one, also there is one Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 7: Jesus is the head of the Melchizedek Priest Hood and we do not need another.
Hebrews 8: We have a new covenant and the old way of works is not needed but has faded away.

My questions are : Do we need an authority figure with the authority of divine inspiration? If no then how would I present it. It is obvious Mormons are not a true extension of Christianity but how would it be presented? It would seem that I have ample substance for an argument but they don't buy into it. These guys are sly and will ponder on it for weeks before coming back with an answer.

First off, be careful and be sure you're well versed in your arguments, or they'll tear down your faith.
Now, as far as refuting them, dump everything you've been told about how to do so.

Quoting the Bible and arguing from is going to be hard and may not do a lot of good (unless you're giving out salvation verses ) because when all is said and done you'll find that they believe the bible to be true as far as it's translated correctly. And every time they get stuck they fall back on the "translated incorrectly" excuse, not that it's easy for them to get stuck, they have a (false) answer for most everything. (Joseph Smith rewrote it "correctly", I used to have a copy of it)
Their own materials prove them wrong, and that's usually the best option. Show the inconsistancies and errors in their own works that prove Mormonism false. Show them the mistakes in the Book of Mormon that tell of animals in America that weren't here then or of materials that hadn't been produced yet being mentioned.
Use the Journal of Discourses to show where they made false or blasphemous prophecies.
They'll deny fully that mormonism is connected to Masonry, but show them the eerily similar rituals of the early temple procedures to Masonic procedures, including the white aprons, the handshake, secret name, the hand motions such as the ones used in the oath of secrecy in the temple. (but go gently here, they're very uncomfortable with discussing what happens in the temple)
Now, as far as the priesthood and the necessity of it. They believe it's still necessary, and that an intercessor to God is still necessary. Tell them the signifigance of the veil in the temple being rent when Jesus died, and show them that Jesus then became the ONLY intercessor, and that all saved are considered the "priesthood".
Also, be ready to give a full explanation of the trinity, because they don't go with that either.
Oh, and they don't believe anybody is going to hell either.
You might also want to do some research into the decorations and designs on the temples, esp. the Salt Lake City one, and let them know which ones are Satanic symbols and what those symbols mean.
Sooner or later in all this they're going to have to admit that if mormonism is true than the Bible is false. This means they're going to have to define who Jesus is without it, only going on what Joseph Smith said about Him. And Joseph Smith claimed that he did more for the church than Jesus did, that Jesus lost the church and J.S. was able to succeed where Jesus failed. He elevates himself higher than Jesus. (also note that it's believed that as the prophet for our dispensation we'll have to have permission from J.S. to enter heaven) So now Jesus is outta the picture, because he was just a man that became a god like the rest of us all can.
And who is God in mormonism? Their own words: "As God once was, so man is. As God is, so man may become." He was just another spiritual kid of another God and his wife that did good and was elevated to godhood, as they believe they will be too.
Here is where you ask them to explain again what the similarities between mormonism and Christianity are.
In the end, they can't use the Bible as their proof that mormonism is true, they can't use that it's the same God and Jesus of Christianity to prove mormonism it true, all they can go on is a burning feeling that it's true and the books by J.S. that have been shown to contain gross errors and that there is no physical evidence for. And as far as the feeling goes, you can always point out that ever since they were little or since they converted to mormonism they've been encouraged to repeat and have listened a thousand times to the phrase "I know that the LDS church is true and I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet". Ask them if that could possibly be a reason for these strong feelings, or if they really truly believe it in their own hearts and minds, and don't let them answer right then, tell them to think about it.

Wow, how was THAT for a long answer without actually answering the given question?

Gina

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
Personally I wouldn't waste my time and I've never wasted mine talking to Mormons. First of all you are outnumbered and they are using the Book Of Mormon in the argument. If you want to debate both of you use the Bible. I've talked to Mormons and JWs and find they use their Bible because they sure don't know mine. What could possibly be gained by arguing with these men and what is your reason for it? I would stick to my own theology and turn a deaf ear to theirs. Others may have a different approach but I'm only giving you what I would do if in your shoes... Brother Glen

Wow Tyndale. I'm thankful that not all Christians have this attitude or I'd still be in the LDS church.
It hurts to hear and see Christians with this attitude.
Or are we only supposed to witness to the found and not the lost??
Gina

 

[tyndale1946]

Gina, charlieninerzero asked what I felt he should do and I gave him what I would do. You were in the LDS and I never was so I can't relate to your experience. I just gave an example of what I would do and if you disagree with what I said that is fine. God never lost a battle and will never lose one of his blood bought children... Brother Glen

 

[Helen]

Hi Charlie,

I live in a Mormon area, too. In fact almost my entire neighborhood is Mormon and I am shunned by the women because I am not one and won't convert!

The best web resource you can have is at Utah Lighthouse Ministry: http://www.utlm.org/

You will find a topical index on their page with information you need.

Please remember that cults operate on the fears of their members. The people you talk to may know you are right in their hearts, but they will be too afraid to make any challenges or changes. But we know that "perfect love casts out all fear." So our character needs to speak even louder than our words, right?

If you can't find what you need on the Tanner's site, email me and I'll get any information for you that you need. I've got an incredible library here on Mormonism and some very good friends who are ex-Mormons.

Gina, here, can also probably help you some, as she is an ex-Mormon.

Remember they are people who are deceived. Many of them (especially the women and teens) are also under incredible stress and often in emotional pain. And remember Romans 2 -- it is God's kindness that leads people to repentence.

God bless.

 

[blackbird]

The god of this age has blinded the eyes of them that believe not!

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
Gina, charlieninerzero asked what I felt he should do and I gave him what I would do. You were in the LDS and I never was so I can't relate to your experience. I just gave an example of what I would do and if you disagree with what I said that is fine. God never lost a battle and will never lose one of his blood bought children... Brother Glen

No, God does't lose battles, but Christians do.
I can understand focusing on one group of unsaved people to focus your ministry on, but I just can't understand excluding any, especially using God's sovreignty as an excuse. If it applies to mormons, why not apply it to all unsaved and not bother talking at all?
I don't mean to argue, I just mean to get you to change your view.
I understand differences of opinion, yet feel some things are too important to just let go at that.
Gina

 

[charlieninerzero]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
What could possibly be gained by arguing with these men and what is your reason for it? Brother Glen

Brother Glen,
Thanks for your opinion. You ask me why I do this so I will tell you. Several years ago I started talking to the missionaries and they gave me their 7 seven lessons. They asked me to be baptized in their church several times. The Baptist church I was and still am attending has several x-Mormons so I ask them about it and got a fuller version of the story. The lesson does not mention Mormons will be gods some day populating their own planet, and much more, etc.... My neighbor a Mormon all her life (appx. 40 years) did not know about the god path and laughed when I mentioned it. She decided to become a Temple Mormon and started talking to her bishop weekly for about a year. She became a Temple Mormon and now she believes she will become a god and populate her own planet. The reason I deliver the truth to Mormons is because they need it. Their missionaries and other elders are delivering the milk and not the full gospel. To me that is lying and a wolf in sheep's clothing.

I understand your delivering the gospel in other areas and it is very much needed in other areas. You in your area, and me in mine is what makes us a stronger team.

 

[charlieninerzero]

Originally posted by Primitive Baptist:
There is no way to convince a Mormon his or her theology is wrong because he or she is not even using the same book you are! The Mormon can defend false teachings because he or she is getting them out of a false book. You cannot teach someone something from the Bible when he or she has another book which overrides the authority of the Bible. Pray that if the Mormon you are talking to is a child of God that God would save him (not eternally) by the Gospel. That is the purpose of the Gospel; to save the believers!

Thank for the post. I agree to pray for them. I am not going to save anyone. It is Jesus that does the saving. I pay for them and then hit them with the truth!

 

[charlieninerzero]

Gina,

Yes that is a long answer Obviously you have experience dealing with this subject. I have tried many approaches and delivered many of their false teaching using their own documents. Everytime they believe despite the facts. I don't expect any to see the truth except over a very, very long period of time. They do believe the bible to be true but my translation is not the truth. Thus the difficulty.

They will not recognize the Journal of Discourses as an authoritative book. Nor do the recognize any of the false prophesies because they say it is not what is being taught in their church.

I did look into the Utah Mormon church and did present acultic symbols built into the architecture. Did phase them. They also believe the JS translated hieroglyphics and came up with the book of Abraham.

I have not been able to get them to admit the bible is false and Mormonism is true. I will have to think on that one. It seems like a good angle.

I did tell them that satan can answer prayer for the truth and give a burning feeling in their hearts. Also that satan can appear as an angel of light.

Thanks for your advice and knowledge.

 

[charlieninerzero]

Gina,

How right you are. It is our kindness that speaks. Thanks for the web site I will take a look at it.

 

[Lauren]

Hello. You got some good advice here.....One thing about the book of Mormon......it doesnt teach many of the doctrines that the church holds to. There are actually four books Mormons take as scripture: Book of Mormon, Pearl of great price, Doctrine and Covenants and in small measure the Bible. The bible seems like mostly is used where they can apply it to teachings from the other 3 books. The book of mormon has little in it that is unscriptural, matter of fact whole chapters are plagarized from the bible. Check out pearl and doctrines. There is where you will find the meat of their doctrines. for example, the doctrine that man will become Gods they take from the Moses book of Pearl. That is one belief that gives me the chills.......it was Satan himself who originated that doctrine (gen 3)
one thing you might ask is since the book of mormon was TRANSLATED by God, as claimed (see intro to BOM), why has it needed so many revisions? Also, in the intro, it quotes JSJ as saying he told the brethren that the BOM was the "most correct of any book on Earth"....yet the book has had THOUSANDS of changes? They might say they are only changes in puntuation, NOT TRUE. There are places where names have been changed!
Just some thoughts.........

His peace to all-L

 

[charlieninerzero]

Lauren,
<br>
The lie originated in Gen. 3 that we can be like gods is a good argument, no it's a great argument and most devastating. I did bring that one up and their response. Knowing good and evil, therefore satan is part of the plan and was suppose to say that. They believe that he is the embodiment of evil but to be like gods is not actually a lie. According to Mormons. They put forth a lot of effort interpreting the creation to meet their beliefs. Their doctrine that we can be a god is weird but seems very common in lots of other cults I have been dealing with. I have also concluded Mormons target Christians like a virus. Also nobody becomes a mormon who knows the hidden mormon gospel.
<br>
According to them my logic is not inspired by the Holy Spirit and is flawed. But I have mentioned to them some logic that blew their minds. Which is Jesus is the church, he is the head of the church, most importantly he is alive and not dead, he is still here and never left. Therefore there never has been an apostasy and we do not need a profit or the mormon church. I am trying to prepare for when they are done chewing on that one. I have pretty much exhausted my ideas. You and many other people on this board seem to have a lot of experience in this area as well as theology and I am grateful for it.

 

[Norman]

Gina, can you e-mail me info on the mistakes in the Book of Mormon? Thank you.
Mrwayne51736@cs.com

 

[Gina B]

Norman, no problem. Give me a little bit to get it together though, ok? It's been a while and I don't have it altogether anymore, and I may need the base info. sent again from a friend in CA and to go through the book of Mormon again.

I may just get together the info. you requested and info. on the whole religion and post it on my message board too, if I do that I'll e-mail you the link for it when I'm done.
Gina

 

[paul hadik]

Charlie:

for beginners there is no difference between a lost Mormon and a lost Baptist. Please don't listen to those who say that Mormons and JW's etc are a waste of time, evil etc.
An unsaved person is an unsaved person, apart from God and makes no dif what they consider or call themselves.

"With God all things are possible". Believe it or not that applies to all of us.
If you really want to understand things Mormon then be wary of sites run by non-Mormons like the Tanners. LDS automatically will turn you off if they hear the common arguments being repeated.
Don't be argumentative with them and don't call them a cult. Read books by Talmage and other LDS writers to fully understand from the horse's mouth where they are coming from.
Get a good understanding of their teaching of pre-mortal existence as that is the biggest causer of the divide (how can God truly punish His children? versus God punished a rebellious creation)
understand their doctrine of salvation. Christ death on the cross makes it possible for us to be resurrected, what we do in following commandments and ordinances makes it possible for exaltation and deification. Same words, different definitions.

In closing, please understand that only God can bring a person to full knowledge of salvation. I am sure there are some members of the LDS church who will show up in heaven someday, just like I believe there will be some baptists surprised to find themselves in Hell.
Witness with love and truth from the Scriptures. Keep your patience and let God handle the rest.

paul
moderator at ZLMB
pub26.ezboard.com/bpacumenispages
(a great site to hear first hand what LDS believe)

 

[Jimmy]

Having been converted from the false teachings of mormonisim many years ago by a simple salvation message, I can say that yes mormons can be saved. I believe that deep down inside every mormon is a still small voice saying " this is all a lie." Mormons love to draw people into drawn out and foolish debates. My advice is to stick to the word of God and avoid there cleverly devised fables. There very vocabulary is differnt than that of a Christian. For instance if a Christian says the word Gosple he means... the good news... death, barial and reserection, the mormon means the combind teachings of mormonisim. Our Jesus is God incornate, His is the brother of satan and so on. Mormons have to pretend to live a Godly life. When they encounter a Christain that lives the truth they know there is a differance. bible-truth.org has some good articals on mormonisim.