trying2understand
New Member
Because individuals can choose to reject God's truth.
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Living4Him
New Member
I would like to add my two cents to this discussion regarding Mary. (Okay it may be more
)
1. Mariolotry - no where in the Catechism will you find any doctrine entitled "Mariolotry". Catholics do not worship Mary nor pray to Mary or ask Mary to forgive theirs sins.
2. What makes up the "Hail Mary?" The Hail Mary is primarily quoting scripture. "Hail Mary, full of Grace. The Lord is with you." This is taken directly from Luke 1:28. It is the greeting of the angel Gabriel to Mary. "Blessed are you among women." This is from Luke 1:42. It is the greeting to Mary by Elizabth. "And blessed is the fruit of your womb,(Jesus)" This is also from Luke 1:42. "Holy Mary, Mother of God" We are not implying that Mary is the Mother of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. We are affirming that she is the Mother of Jesus and Jesus is God. This is the unmistakable meaning of Elizabeth in Luke 1:43 when she says, "But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. We are only asking Mary to pray for us just like you would ask a fellow Christian from your church to pray for you. Is that person mediating between you and God? No because there is only one mediator and that is Jesus. That person is offering intercession for you which is simply a prayer.
When we pray the Rosary, we are meditating on aspects of the Life of Christ. The Joyful Mystery - encompass Christ coming into the world. The Luminous Mystery - begin with the Baptism of Christ and end with the Lord's Supper. The Sorrowful Mystery - begin with the agony in the garden and end with the crucifixion. The Glorious Mystery - is about the resurrection and Ascension of our Lord and Savior. Do you daily mediate on Christ's life?
3. No where in scripture is Mary referred to as "The Queen of Heaven." Rev. 12:1 alludes to this, "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:" It has been said that the child referred to in Rev. 12 is Jesus, therefore the woman being with child is Mary.
)1. Mariolotry - no where in the Catechism will you find any doctrine entitled "Mariolotry". Catholics do not worship Mary nor pray to Mary or ask Mary to forgive theirs sins.
2. What makes up the "Hail Mary?" The Hail Mary is primarily quoting scripture. "Hail Mary, full of Grace. The Lord is with you." This is taken directly from Luke 1:28. It is the greeting of the angel Gabriel to Mary. "Blessed are you among women." This is from Luke 1:42. It is the greeting to Mary by Elizabth. "And blessed is the fruit of your womb,(Jesus)" This is also from Luke 1:42. "Holy Mary, Mother of God" We are not implying that Mary is the Mother of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. We are affirming that she is the Mother of Jesus and Jesus is God. This is the unmistakable meaning of Elizabeth in Luke 1:43 when she says, "But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. We are only asking Mary to pray for us just like you would ask a fellow Christian from your church to pray for you. Is that person mediating between you and God? No because there is only one mediator and that is Jesus. That person is offering intercession for you which is simply a prayer.
When we pray the Rosary, we are meditating on aspects of the Life of Christ. The Joyful Mystery - encompass Christ coming into the world. The Luminous Mystery - begin with the Baptism of Christ and end with the Lord's Supper. The Sorrowful Mystery - begin with the agony in the garden and end with the crucifixion. The Glorious Mystery - is about the resurrection and Ascension of our Lord and Savior. Do you daily mediate on Christ's life?
3. No where in scripture is Mary referred to as "The Queen of Heaven." Rev. 12:1 alludes to this, "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:" It has been said that the child referred to in Rev. 12 is Jesus, therefore the woman being with child is Mary.
neal4christ
New Member
T2U,
Please go to the thread entitled "Unity."
Thanks!
Neal
Bob Ryan,
You only assume that Mary the Mother of Jesus was sinless. Perhaps up through the Birth of Jesus she may have been. But there is no record, only speculation that she remained "sinless".
There is no evidence whatever to support your Sinless Mary theory, but there is a whole lot of human nature that weighs against that being the case. For ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. Rom 2:23.
The only way Mary could have remained sinless is for her to be Deity, which is of course the Mary-olotrist's belief!
Mary would not have had sexual relations with Joseph, else she could not remain "eternal virgin". How many of you would live with a woman that "cannot" have sexual relations with you? "Cannot"? Yes, because that would spoil what some believe about her!
Without a doubt the answer to the question of whether or not Mary is a mother, is yes! She is the Mother of Jesus who was conceived in her womb by the power of God! Is she the mother of the church? NO! The church is not a human child! Is she the mother of Christianity? NO, Christianity is not a human child! The only thing she had to do with the church and Christianity is that she participated in the church and bore the child who became known as the Christ, from whence the Name Christian comes. She did not establish Christianity.
You only assume that Mary the Mother of Jesus was sinless. Perhaps up through the Birth of Jesus she may have been. But there is no record, only speculation that she remained "sinless".
There is no evidence whatever to support your Sinless Mary theory, but there is a whole lot of human nature that weighs against that being the case. For ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. Rom 2:23.
The only way Mary could have remained sinless is for her to be Deity, which is of course the Mary-olotrist's belief!
Mary would not have had sexual relations with Joseph, else she could not remain "eternal virgin". How many of you would live with a woman that "cannot" have sexual relations with you? "Cannot"? Yes, because that would spoil what some believe about her!
Without a doubt the answer to the question of whether or not Mary is a mother, is yes! She is the Mother of Jesus who was conceived in her womb by the power of God! Is she the mother of the church? NO! The church is not a human child! Is she the mother of Christianity? NO, Christianity is not a human child! The only thing she had to do with the church and Christianity is that she participated in the church and bore the child who became known as the Christ, from whence the Name Christian comes. She did not establish Christianity.
F
frozencell
Guest
I have quite a few responses to a lot of people on this thread. To make it easy I'll do it all on one post, but it could get a little extensive. Be back soon!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I think it is called Mariology inside the RCC.Originally posted by Living4Him:
I would like to add my two cents to this discussion regarding Mary. (Okay it may be more
1. Mariolotry - no where in the Catechism will you find any doctrine entitled "Mariolotry". Catholics do not worship Mary nor pray to Mary or ask Mary to forgive theirs sins.
But on those subject areas - you find things similar to "At the command of Mary even God obeys". Hence the more common non-RC term "mariolotry"
True enough - but it says nothing about being sinless.
Problem 1. Jesus was not "procreated" rather God the Son was "incarnated". That means that Mary can only be the "Mother of God" by first "being God herself" since this is not a case of procreation.
Your mother "procreated you" by virtue of the Biological act of procreation - she is therefore your mother.
Incarnation is an entirely different process and NOTHING is procreated in that process. It is unique to Christ alone and it requires that He NOT be procreated by Mary - but rather INCARNATED by God ... instead of STARTING with Mary - God the Son is eternal - having NO beginning and only INCARNATED -- not procreated by Mary.
Problem 2. The text of Luke does not says "Mother of God". Rather - it says
Luke 1:42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
nor does Luke 1:43 mention "Mother of God"
That is not true. The Catholic Church forbids its own members to pray to "a fellow Christian from your church". This is very different - it is only permitted for the "Dead" -- those of 1Thess 4 called "The Dead in Christ".
In fact - it is a form of necromancy - communicating with the dead.
No because there is only one mediator and that is Jesus. That person is offering intercession for you which is simply a prayer.
Far less than I should.
True enough - but the woman is not Mary. That woman is driven into the wilderness for 1260 years and persecuted by Satan for that time. This is "not Mary". Rather it is the church of the OT saints prior to Christ AND the church of the NT saints AFTER Christ presented in Rev 12 AS it is in Romans 11 - as ONE entity spanning all of human history.
In Romans 11 it is ONE vine with both Jew and Gentile saint from BOTH the OT and the NT.
It is the same in Rev 12.
In Christ,
Bob
F
frozencell
Guest
Dave,
I am glad to hear that you have found comfort and solace in Mary. she was the most humble servant of the Lord, Our Savior, and it makes me happy that she has been about to comfort you. May the Lord continue to guide you in this journey closer to Him.
2. This second paragraph makes absolutely no sense. There is nothing wrong with highly respecting a sinful person. People do it all the time.
3. Paragraph #3...spoken like a true Catholic! I'm surprised you didn't know that!
And it's only a good debate if you have your facts straight.
We all agree - there is no direct reference to the word "Trinity", either.
And, in general, about Mary being the Mother of Christians....Mark 3:35 and Luke 8:21.
I am glad to hear that you have found comfort and solace in Mary. she was the most humble servant of the Lord, Our Savior, and it makes me happy that she has been about to comfort you. May the Lord continue to guide you in this journey closer to Him.
1. No Catholic thinks Mary will save us.
2. This second paragraph makes absolutely no sense. There is nothing wrong with highly respecting a sinful person. People do it all the time.
3. Paragraph #3...spoken like a true Catholic! I'm surprised you didn't know that!
Firt, it is Jesus' work that is finished (His dying for us). Figments of the imagination??? I would LOVE to hear your theory about the thousands of people at Fatima that all saw the exact same thing at the exact same time even though everyone didn't know everyone else. I suppose this is another Catholic "revision" in which the Pope somehow convinced all those people (who had no idea what to expect when they got there!) to fool the whole world and never divulge the secret. Interesting.....
Of course no one can see God. That's in the Bible. But my mom is Protestant (as is the rest of my family) and she saw an evil spirit in her room once. My step-father rebuked it in the name of Jesus. Now, knowing that mother would never lie about that (seen by my mom, step-father, and little sister) could you please explain that? And every other million people that see spirits.
It's a good thing that Catholics don't ask Mary to forgive our sins then. And I read just about every Marian prayer in the RCC. None ask Mary for forgiveness of sins.
And it's only a good debate if you have your facts straight.
You forgot one:
We all agree - there is no direct reference to the word "Trinity", either.
First of all, what sons? (Besides Jesus.) No one claims that she did understood at the time. But I'm sure she and all the apostles in heaven understand a lot better now, though.
And, in general, about Mary being the Mother of Christians....Mark 3:35 and Luke 8:21.
Funny how Protestants are so fond of bringing up errors of Catholics, but Catholics have the decency to let the same errors of Protestants go.
No one said she was.
Last I checked everyone was judged by God Himself.
Using sola scriptura, can DISPROVE that she remained sinless? Why, after giving birth to the Son of God, would someone sin?
It's sad that you propose that Mary and Joseph wouldn't have had the strength to not have sex after all they had seen and witnessed. I definitely would!
It's the same idea of blacks calling Africa the Motherland. Common sense.
I have never read something that made less sense. If your interpretation is true, please explain the REST of Re. 12. And it was 1,260 days, not years, well within the normal lifespan of an actual human(which could also elude to her not dying, but ascending to heaven, since 1,260 days is only 3.45 years). And it never said she was persecuted in the desert. Please re-read the ENTIRE chapter VERY CAREFULLY before responding.
neal4christ
New Member
Bob,
What are you referencing when you make this quote?
As to your problems with the Mother of God title, let me ask you, is the woman who adopts a child or marries a child's father a mother to that child? Does being a mother necessarily involve procreation?
Besides, it seems to me your objection is groundless. Mary most certainly had a role in Jesus' earthly body. He had her DNA in him. She gave birth to the God-man. You can't split Jesus up into his God personality and his human personality. He was 100% both. Thus, Mary was the mother of God. She did not CREATE God, but she most definitely mothered the God-man, Jesus Christ.
In Christ,
Neal
Yelsew2 said:
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
In 1 Cor. 9:1 my Bible says of Paul:
Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
Now, this Apostle wrote in 1 Timothy 1:15-17, thus:
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
And in the same letter, chapter 3, verse 16:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
My Bible speaks of at least two apostles who declared Jesus to be God. In John 20:28 my Bible says:
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
In 1 Cor. 9:1 my Bible says of Paul:
Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
Now, this Apostle wrote in 1 Timothy 1:15-17, thus:
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
And in the same letter, chapter 3, verse 16:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Dave_Matthews said:
My first consciousness about sin, punishment, heaven, God, and Jesus Christ were instilled in me by my strict Roman Catholic grandparents and a very devout uncle, though, but, to me, it only shows that God takes care of those whom He had foreknown before the foundation of the world.
She is not my human mother. My human mother is probably dead by now. Mary is not my spiritual mother either, because I never knew her personally for her to guide me spiritually. She is not my divine mother, either. Because the Bible says that a Christian's father is God, and we have no mother spiritually. The "church" is not our mother, either, it did not give birth to us, but, rather, we were brought into the church by our Savior in order that we may be taught and fed the Word of God.
This pastor, and my former pastor, does not avoid the topic of Mary. Proof is you and I are now exchanging notes. I have no fear of being called Catholic, because I was Catholic, my entire family was Catholic, and my country is 80% Roman Catholic, but, other than that, I feel no more kinship to a Catholic than I do with a Muslim or an animist, no disrespect intended to Catholics.
My first consciousness about sin, punishment, heaven, God, and Jesus Christ were instilled in me by my strict Roman Catholic grandparents and a very devout uncle, though, but, to me, it only shows that God takes care of those whom He had foreknown before the foundation of the world.
But your definition of honesty seems to say that our eyes should be focused on the blessedness of Mary instead of the Person of Christ, and Christ is what the Bible is all about, not Mary.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In Revelation 14 John says that the one that created the heavens and the earth "is to be worshipped".
In John 1 - John tells us that this is Christ. In fact John says that Christ was not merely "with God" but Christ "WAS GOD" as God the Son.
In Colossians 1 Paul tells us that it is Christ that made and sustains all things.
In Exodus 20 and Lev 23 we are told to worship the creator on Christ's Gen 2:3 Holy day given to mankind as a memorial of His creative act in making mankind during creation week.
The evidence is in. Christ is God the Son.
However that is "God NOT Procreated by Mary" nor even "Incarnated BY Mary". It is God incarnated by GOD.
God the Son does not begin at the birth of Christ - so Mary could not have procreated God and therefore can not be the biological "Mother of God". Rather She is the one that "Mothered the Christ" as in raising him and being used to cary the infant.
But we do not call Joseph the "Father of God" for serving as the Father of Jesus as He grew up.
We do not call Rome the "protector of God" as the Roman armies kept out other tribes from invading the holy lands (Germanic tribes as it turns out).
And we do not call Mary the "Mother of God" since our Mothers are those that Procreated us and God was NOT procreated by anyone.
Lets face it - to get Mary to be the queen of the universe - you need her to have procreated God as the Mother of God. And such is not the case.
Joseph is not King of the Universe or the Father of God.
Mary is not Queen of the Universe or the Mother of God.
Just the facts.
In Christ,
Bob
In John 1 - John tells us that this is Christ. In fact John says that Christ was not merely "with God" but Christ "WAS GOD" as God the Son.
In Colossians 1 Paul tells us that it is Christ that made and sustains all things.
In Exodus 20 and Lev 23 we are told to worship the creator on Christ's Gen 2:3 Holy day given to mankind as a memorial of His creative act in making mankind during creation week.
The evidence is in. Christ is God the Son.
However that is "God NOT Procreated by Mary" nor even "Incarnated BY Mary". It is God incarnated by GOD.
God the Son does not begin at the birth of Christ - so Mary could not have procreated God and therefore can not be the biological "Mother of God". Rather She is the one that "Mothered the Christ" as in raising him and being used to cary the infant.
But we do not call Joseph the "Father of God" for serving as the Father of Jesus as He grew up.
We do not call Rome the "protector of God" as the Roman armies kept out other tribes from invading the holy lands (Germanic tribes as it turns out).
And we do not call Mary the "Mother of God" since our Mothers are those that Procreated us and God was NOT procreated by anyone.
Lets face it - to get Mary to be the queen of the universe - you need her to have procreated God as the Mother of God. And such is not the case.
Joseph is not King of the Universe or the Father of God.
Mary is not Queen of the Universe or the Mother of God.
Just the facts.
In Christ,
Bob
trying2understand
New Member
Surely, Neal, you have been around the board long enough to know that Bob's "quotes" are meaningless.
Some times he is actually quoting someone.
Some times he is putting quotes around his own words for emphasis.
Some times he is making up quotes that he thinks sound like something that a Catholic would say.
Some times he intermingles all of the above.
There is absolutely no way of knowing which of that above is the case at any given time.
That's why I never bother reading anything that he posts. It's completely without value.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
</font>[/QUOTE]I was meaning to make the point that if we assume that the RC position is correct - then it is a big deal. In fact the big deal that the RC literature makes out of that today is justified and we should expect that the NT church that was in the role of "introducing" this doctrine should have recorded it some place.
Since the NT saints don't mention it - I am arguing that it is not there because we can not simply "assume" that it just wasn't as important as the raising of Lydia or of the daughter of Jarius.
(comparatively minor events mentioned by comparison to a sinless Mary, a Mary assumed into heaven, a Mary that is co-redeemer with Christ ... Queen of Heaven etc)
In Christ,
Bob
Living4Him
New Member
Peace of Christ to all my brothers and sisters in our Lord.
All those who believe that Mary is the "Mother of God" reject the idea that Mary is divine or semi-divine. The Person Jesus Who was her Son was a divine Person. She is the Mother of the Second Person of the Trinity in His humanity and not His divinity.
Nestorianism, Adoptionism, Arianism and Monophysitism are four heresies that deny the fact that Jesus was a divine Person Who was fully God and fully man. Mary was given the title "Mother of God" to refute these heresies. This title was given in response to these heresies that denied the humanity and divinity of Jesus.
Mariology - I apologize, but I can not find any offical teachings of the Church.
Necromancy by Webster's definition is 1 : conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events
2:MAGIC, SORCERY
I don't know anyone who prays the Rosary in hopes of seeing the future.
The "dead" Christians are very much alive in Christ. Although the body is dead, the soul is very much alive and is in Heaven.
At the command of Mary even God obeys - please tell me where this statement can be found as an official proclamation of the Church.
All those who believe that Mary is the "Mother of God" reject the idea that Mary is divine or semi-divine. The Person Jesus Who was her Son was a divine Person. She is the Mother of the Second Person of the Trinity in His humanity and not His divinity.
Nestorianism, Adoptionism, Arianism and Monophysitism are four heresies that deny the fact that Jesus was a divine Person Who was fully God and fully man. Mary was given the title "Mother of God" to refute these heresies. This title was given in response to these heresies that denied the humanity and divinity of Jesus.
Mariology - I apologize, but I can not find any offical teachings of the Church.
Necromancy by Webster's definition is 1 : conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events
2:MAGIC, SORCERY
I don't know anyone who prays the Rosary in hopes of seeing the future.
The "dead" Christians are very much alive in Christ. Although the body is dead, the soul is very much alive and is in Heaven.
At the command of Mary even God obeys - please tell me where this statement can be found as an official proclamation of the Church.
neal4christ
New Member
Bob,
Do you deny that Christ had a physical body?
Also, where is the bolded statement found that I questioned you about? Is it your own or is it from a source with which it can be verified? I would appreciate you citing it so I may read the text for myself. If you don't respond, I will assume it is your own, with no grounds for support.
In Christ,
Neal
[ March 17, 2004, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]
Do you deny that Christ had a physical body?
Also, where is the bolded statement found that I questioned you about? Is it your own or is it from a source with which it can be verified? I would appreciate you citing it so I may read the text for myself. If you don't respond, I will assume it is your own, with no grounds for support.
In Christ,
Neal
[ March 17, 2004, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
One of the many reasons to practice necromancy ... but pagan spiritists communicate with the dead for a wide variety of reasons.
Your idea that you can communicate with the dead as long as you are carefull about what you ask them - is silly.
The Bible never condones the practice - it always condemns the practice.
Period.
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
It is sometimes argued that a non-Catholic can not make any statement about the positions of the RCC since that person is not Catholic and can not reliably know something about the RCC.
It is then added that even an Ex-Catholic can say "nothing".
It is then added that even a CURRENT Catholic can say nothing - after all it is only one voice and they have no authority.
But then the argument goes that even Catholic historians, Popes and Cardinals must be "ignored" if what they say reflects negatively on the RCC. I have a hard time swallowing that one.
It is then added that even an Ex-Catholic can say "nothing".
It is then added that even a CURRENT Catholic can say nothing - after all it is only one voice and they have no authority.
But then the argument goes that even Catholic historians, Popes and Cardinals must be "ignored" if what they say reflects negatively on the RCC. I have a hard time swallowing that one.
Bob