Mother Mary??

[frozencell]

Dear DHK, Bob, and Yelsew,

Thank you for sharing your Baptist beliefs. Thank you for answering our questions with questions. Thank you for the derogatory way in which you speak to us.

I would just like to say that I am completely disgusted with the smugness and arrogance in which you all make your posts. It's enough to almost make me want to throw up all over this keyboard. If I had been interested in the church from an unbelievers standpoint and came here, reading your posts, I would be a lifelong athiest. The characters traits that you display are never condoned by God in any form. You can claim that you are only "discerning" the truth from fiction, but I am not stupid enough to fall prey to your little word games. You are completely consumed with your own "superior" Biblical knowledge, and very rarely offer anything worthwhile. I'm not even sure that any of you three know what the meaning of "humble" is without looking it up. Please continue to high-five each other over your false triumphs and what-not, as this is giving the Catholic Church more opportunity to win those souls which see your mannerisms to the full Truth of Christ in the One True Church.

I am so thoroughly disgusted by your behaivor that I can't even find a suitable word for the feeling I get, and see absolutely no reason to waste any of my time responding to any of the self-righteous garbage you three have posted in the last 3 or 4 pages.

God bless you. I'm afraid you are all in sore, sore need of it.

 

[DHK]

Frozencell,
It used to say somewhere on the board that your views will be challenged. If you can't take the heat, then stay out of the fire. Isn't it amazing that the three people you mentioned: myself, a Baptist; Bob, an SDA, and Yelsew (I'm not sure, perhaps a non-denominationalist)--three people from three entirely different backgrounds all share the same beliefs concerning the Catholic Church. That must count for something. Study the Bible, not your catechism. Look to the Lord, not your pope.
We defend what we say from the Word of God. That is the difference between you and us. Catholic doctrines (many if not most) are defenceless by the Word of God. This is the real cause of your offence.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
DHK

 

[frozencell]

Ok.Let me correct myself. Your PROTESTANT beliefs.

I do study my Bible. Everyday.

I CAN take the heat. That's why I'm here.

I DO look to the Lord. The Pope is a vessel of God.

The cause of my offense (pay attention!) is your ATTITUDE.

And since you feel so free to quote Scripture against me allow me to quote some Scripture FOR you.

1 Corinthians 13


Love

1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

 

[Yelsew2]

Sorry you feel that way frozencell, I have nothing against the Catholic church, I once was a candidate for "conversion" to Catholocism, studied for nearly six months until the priests could not answer my questions about "oral tradition", "eternal virginity", "Mary, the mother of the church", and about 200 more topics.

My beliefs are not "baptist" I am not a follower of John the Baptist. My beliefs are CHRISTIAN! I follow the teachings of Jesus, the Son of God, The Christ!

This BBS is a place to discuss and debate the doctrines and beliefs of "the church" regardless of which faction you may belong to. The point is if you have evidence to support your point of view offer it, and we'll try to determine it's validity based on scripture and the creation the way God made it.

What you call arrogance and smugness is only the result of your own perspective, and not a matter of truth.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by frozencell:
The Pope is a vessel of God. The cause of my offense . . is your ATTITUDE.

YOUR attitude toward Mary and what the "popes" said about her (adding doctrine to scripture) is offensive to Bible believers, frozen one.

When one espouses error and claims it to be truth it gives ME a really poor attitude. Want to see a better attitude? Stick with the Word of God and we will have a unity of spirit.

Add a load of tradition and papal bull, and we will not!

 

[neal4christ]

It is a mistake to assume that not other attributes are available for physical bodies other than the ones in this sinful state.

I agree; and just for the record, I never made this assumption, if you were alluding to me.

In Christ,
Neal

 

[neal4christ]

frozencell,

I understand what you mean. I am a Baptist and some of the attitudes here greatly concern me and honestly embarrass me. DHK pointed out that the three you mentioned were united in their stand against the Catholic church, but that is about all they would be united on. I am surprised that he did not mind being mentioned with Bob, whom I would think he would consider to be part of a cult.

In Christ,
Neal

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Yelsew2:
Good question? I wasn't there and don't know. The evidence says that Jesus arose bodily from the grave, and that some 40 days later He ascended into heaven. In that 40 days he made appearances to his disciples and other believers, some 500 eye witnesses by most estimations. There were however periods of time when no one saw him, and he was not with his flock. So all we have to go by is what is recorded. It remains a mystery as to what form of body Jesus had when He ascended.

For the two on the road to emmaeus (sp) he was with them then suddenly disappeared. Flesh does not do that...at least to all available knowledge we have.

Oh dear, you seem to be suggesting that when Jesus rose from the dead that He left His body in the tomb.

Please, tell me that you do not think for even a moment that is a possibility that you would consider.

BTW, my original question was concerning the transfiguration. When Jesus was transfigured in the presence of two of the Apostles, did Jesus leave His fleshly body then?

I think that you may be creating a few beliefs concerning this that are not supported by Scripture.

 

[Yelsew2]

trying2understand, you said,

Oh dear, you seem to be suggesting that when Jesus rose from the dead that He left His body in the tomb.

I said,

The evidence says that Jesus arose bodily from the grave, and that some 40 days later He ascended into heaven.

What's so hard to understand about that?

 

[trying2understand]

Yelsew2, this is the exchange that causes me to wonder about your beliefs:

I asked you, "Did Jesus leave His body of flesh when He was transfigured on the mount?"

You answered, "Good question? I wasn't there and don't know. The evidence says that Jesus arose bodily from the grave, and that some 40 days later He ascended into heaven. In that 40 days he made appearances to his disciples and other believers, some 500 eye witnesses by most estimations. There were however periods of time when no one saw him, and he was not with his flock. So all we have to go by is what is recorded. It remains a mystery as to what form of body Jesus had when He ascended."

You seem to be considering separating the human and divine in Jesus.

 

[Yelsew2]

I don't know the answer to "did he leave his flesh"? But to demonstrate who he is to his yet unconvinced disciples, it is probable that, as God, he transfigured, transsubstantiated, changed his flesh, he is afterall, God!

But I stand by my statement that human flesh does not disappear from sight to re-appear somewhere else like a closed room. EXCEPT in Star Trek movies! We do not have the power to pass through solid walls, closed doors and windows.

Unless by divine intervention our bodies cannot escape the environment of natural earth, however our spirit can and does, upon the death of the flesh.

But now back to the topic of Mother Mary????

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Yelsew2:
I don't know the answer to "did he leave his flesh"? But to demonstrate who he is to his yet unconvinced disciples, it is probable that, as God, he transfigured, transsubstantiated, changed his flesh, he is afterall, God!

But I stand by my statement that human flesh does not disappear from sight to re-appear somewhere else like a closed room. EXCEPT in Star Trek movies! We do not have the power to pass through solid walls, closed doors and windows.

You lost me, what are you talking about?

Unless by divine intervention our bodies cannot escape the environment of natural earth, however our spirit can and does, upon the death of the flesh.

But now back to the topic of Mother Mary????

Why do you object to possibility of the Assumption of Mary into Heaven then?

No one is saying that Mary's body was assumed into Heaven by her power, but rather by divine intervention.

What exactly is your objection?

 

[Yelsew2]

What is your insistance that she was assumed? What proof do you offer? You see you are the one making the claim, the burden of proof rests upon you!

 

[frozencell]

Once again answering questions with questions. Very effective way of replying without supporting your stance.

And Bob, you say that you want me to prove my case, but turn down any sources except your Protestant Bible, effectively (and unfairly) stacking the argument in your favor and making it pointless for me to post anything you don't agree with.

 

[Yelsew2]

Originally posted by frozencell:
Once again answering questions with questions. Very effective way of replying without supporting your stance.

And Bob, you say that you want me to prove my case, but turn down any sources except your Protestant Bible, effectively (and unfairly) stacking the argument in your favor and making it pointless for me to post anything you don't agree with.

I use the Holy Bible with Apocrypha Frozencell, so let's get it on. The fact is you offer no proof or even substantive agrument that Mary was assumed up to heaven.

There are no eye witness reports, just like there are no burial certificates or marked graves. So what proof is there? NONE! So one must assume then that Mary being 100% human dies and is buried just like all other humans. You cannot assume that Mary was lifted into heaven bodily simply because you have no eye witness reports.

You cannot say where Jesus came from when He joined the two on the road, or where He went when he disappeared from the two after breaking bread with them. You cannot say where Jesus went after the other Mary saw him in the Garden after he had arisen. You cannot say how Jesus appeared in the upper room where his disciples had gathered or where he went from there. And likewise, you cannot say that Mary was assumed into heaven!

Why can we not assume that the Apostles "were assumed" into heaven? After all, they were Jesus chosen disciples, whom he loved.

Let's see your evidence! Let's hear your testamony! Silence us with facts!

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by trying2understand:

Why do you object to possibility of the Assumption of Mary into Heaven then?

No one is saying that Mary's body was assumed into Heaven by her power, but rather by divine intervention.

What exactly is your objection?

#1. IT is not "mentioned" by first or second century Christians.

#2. It is only "argued" from the heresy that Mary was sinless like Christ.

Since the teaching is founded on a lie - how could you expect someone who rejects the errors of the dark ages to accept it?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by frozencell:


And Bob, you say that you want me to prove my case, but turn down any sources except your Protestant Bible, effectively (and unfairly) stacking the argument in your favor and making it pointless for me to post anything you don't agree with.

Is it your position that RC doctrine can only be based on RC "we say so" sources?

Are you saying that the Jewish and Protestant OT is "invalid"?

Are you saying that the NT books that I have are "translated wrong"?

For my part - when I debate with Catholics I always try to use RC authorities in my sources. I would hope that you would do the same - using my Church leader's statements when responding to me. (As well as the Bible that we both agree to)

This is the very essence of objective open exchange.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by frozencell:
Dear DHK, Bob, and Yelsew,

Thank you for sharing your Baptist beliefs.
...
I would just like to say that I am completely disgusted with the smugness and arrogance in which you all make your posts. It's enough to almost make me want to throw up all over this keyboard.
...
I am so thoroughly disgusted by your behaivor that I can't even find a suitable word for the feeling I get, and see absolutely no reason to waste any of my time responding to any of the self-righteous garbage you ... (obligatory ranting deleted)

And thank you for sharing.

At any point - feel free to respond to the points made in my posts -- instead of just ranting about your feelings of superiority mixed with various states of illness.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Frogman]

BTW, my original question was concerning the transfiguration. When Jesus was transfigured in the presence of two of the Apostles, did Jesus leave His fleshly body then?

For what it is or is not worth, I do not believe Jesus left his fleshly body on the mount of transfiguration.

I have never looked at this for purpose of study, but that is how I would answer were we in person having this discussion.

Bro. Dallas

 

[BobRyan]

Why is there a supposition that he left his mortal body?

Divinity had the power to flash through the human form at any time. It is not a function of what the human fallen form can do - it is a function of what divinity "can do".

In Christ,

Bob