Mothers,wives, and priorities

[Headcoveredlady]

Mother-nurse, barely ever home, this in part caused me to give my heart to peers at a very young age.

Grandmother-while her children were growing up she worked in the Catholic school they attended and before that took them along to cleaning jobs.

Father's mom- homemaker

Greatgrandmother- homemaker and home business
greatgrandmother-homemaker
other greatgrandmothers, I am unsure what they did

 

[SueLyn]

HCL,

How could you possibly compare putting a few seeds in a small piece of ground to picking cotton from sun up to sun down? Or spending an entire day branding cattle? What color is the sky where you live? Are you saying women that lived in the country that worked outside their homes doing hard, laboring chores are not considered stay-at-home moms? My whole point was women of today comparing themselves to women in the Bible, just can't be done. Our days are nothing like theirs, our days are nothing like our grandmothers or possibly our mothers. The job I did raising my children is nothing like the job my ancestors had raising their children.

Clint and Joshua, my mother now works outside the home, she is 76, she works 40 hours a week, she is in charge of the fabric dept. at her local Wal-Mart Supercenter. She is a Baptist, she accepted Christ as her Saviour at the age of 12 at Falls Creek Tabernacle located a few miles outside of Davis, OK. (This is now where many SBC's attend church camp, including me.) Some young girls came to her house and asked her to come to the revival, she told them she had no shoes, right then and there one of the girls took off her shoes and gave them to my mother, she went to the revival and was saved that night. She gave birth to 8 children, 3 passed away. She did not begin working, what some would consider, outside of the home until the last child had moved out on their own.

In no way should women who work be made to feel they are giving less to their homes than women who do not. In the same principle, stay-at-home moms should not be made to feel like they are lazy and have little worth. (I encountered this many times, and still do.) A mother's worth is not measured on if she works at an office or not.

Sue

 

[Molly]

Yes,I have said it is best...if the priority is to be a keeper of the home,then that is best accomplished when you are not working. Do you agree with that being the *best* scenario?

Maybe some can be a home keeper and work outside the home,but it is harder to fulfill all the responsibilties,correct?

Do you think it is *best* on the children if the mother works? If so,how? Is it *easier* to get household things done when working? If so,when? You said in your last post that I have acted like it is best for mothers to be home....it is *best*. But,if there are women out there who work full time,spend tons of time with their children,cook,clean their home and everything,then that is great. Could I do it? No. I remeber befoe children I taught school for 2 years...I graded papers at night,I wokred on bulletin boards after school,I was constantly doing stuff at home,even after regular working hours. How much time would that leave in a day to take care of the priorities?(Titus 2 priorities) Why can't we admit,it truly is best to be home with the children,keeping the home....is it mandatory? Now,that is another question....for me,it is mandatory. I,personally could not choose to work outside the home,but it is not sin if someone works. I could never be the kind of wife and mother I am now if I worked...that is the truth. I see what I have time for and how much time I spend caring for the children and if I worked,it would be impossible to do what I do now...so,for me,I would say I need to be home.

I have a friend that teaches school and has a child in elem school. She has someone else that picks her daughter up from school to go to piano lessons,dance,swimming,etc....she leaves before her child goes to school(her husband takes the child)...while the child is at an after school activity,the mother is frantically trying to get to the grocery store,run by the PO,stop to get gas in the car,etc...before time to go pick her child up...then it is time to run home,fix a quick dinner,do homework,and go to bed. then the nest day is goes about the same way,maybe not a trip to grocery store every day...but I do know her child carpools with other kids and she may not see her child until 6pm or so. Yes,she has summers off and that is good...but I could not have that kind of life. And teaching is one of the less demanding careers out there.I remeber when I taught,it was hard to get everything done that I needed to do and I did not even have kids yet.

I desire to see God's Word honored. I think it is time for the older women to teach and encourage the younger women to stay focused on their home and love their husbands and children,to be pure and sensible....I read a quote recently..."There are too many houses,and not enough homes." That's tragic.

 

[Molly]

I did not teach typing...can you tell? Sorry about all the typos!

 

[Molly]

I am going to bow out on this topic for now...thanks for all the comments and the healthy debate...it has been good. It is okay if we disagree on this. I don't feel any bad feeling towards any of you. I hope you don't feel negatively towards me either. Nothing you say can or will change my stand on this and I've been staying up way too late talking about this. I've been talking to my husband about it,telling him what Clint has said,what others have said... and his response is,who cares what they think,we have to do what is right in our eyes,from what we see taught from God's word....that is the bottom line,we all have to what we think is the best thing,obviously,it is different with a lot of us.

I can not force my views on you.

It's been good,now I am off to bed!
Molly

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Originally posted by Molly:
Yes,I have said it is best...if the priority is to be a keeper of the home,then that is best accomplished when you are not working. Do you agree with that being the *best* scenario?

Maybe it is for you. It does not make it so for everyone.

Maybe some can be a home keeper and work outside the home,but it is harder to fulfill all the responsibilties,correct?

Maybe it is for you. It does not make it so for everyone.

Do you think it is *best* on the children if the mother works? If so,how? Is it *easier* to get household things done when working? If so,when?

Now we're hitting on something. Is it "ease" that motivates you? No, it would probably be "easier" for Margie to accomplish everything here if she didn't work. This isn't about an "easy" life. This is about using talents as is expressed in Matthew 25:14-30. My wife is like the servant with five talents. If she did not use them, she would be "cast out into the darkness."

Could I do it? No. I remeber befoe children I taught school for 2 years...I graded papers at night,I wokred on bulletin boards after school,I was constantly doing stuff at home,even after regular working hours. How much time would that leave in a day to take care of the priorities?(Titus 2 priorities)

Take my word for it, she has time. I know that I married an exceptional woman. I expect our children will become exceptional adults from watching her example. Our children will "rise and call her blessed." (Hope that may answer you question, HCL)

Why can't we admit,it truly is best to be home with the children,keeping the home....is it mandatory? Now,that is another question....for me,it is mandatory. I,personally could not choose to work outside the home,but it is not sin if someone works. I could never be the kind of wife and mother I am now if I worked...that is the truth. I see what I have time for and how much time I spend caring for the children and if I worked,it would be impossible to do what I do now...so,for me,I would say I need to be home.

...and that is your choice and no one here should judge you for it.

And teaching is one of the less demanding careers out there.

Not so. Teaching is one of the most noble proffessions in history. A teacher has resposibilities that go far beyond the classroom. She becomes the role model for many of her students and is the first authority figure outside of the family that most children encouter. She is a counsellor, baby-sitter, negotiater, motivater, guidance counsellor, time manager and diplomat. Teachers form the future for all of us and if you expect this country to continue to be the great power in the world that it is, I expect you better appreciate the over-worked and under-paid teachers in this nation.

I desire to see God's Word honored.

As does everyone on this board. That's why I refute these narrow interpretations and twistings of Scripture.

[ May 03, 2002, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

[Molly]

Okay,I do have to say on emore thing since Clint,you have put words in my mouth about the teaching profession...ughhh...I di not say that it was not a noble profession. I respect the teachers very much! What I said was,it is less demanding than most careers,I was comparing teaching to physicians,attorneys,corporate positions,travelling sales people,I was comparing on hours,not nobleness...teaching has summers off,which is good for families,the hours are less than these other profession that women have have-some may leave their children in child care for 10-12 hours,because of the more demanding jobs. I was not attacking your wife's job...I was talking about teaching from my perspective. (since I was one) You are way too defensive. I was just saying that even with a job like teaching,I would not want that kind of schedule and do the things I need to do to fulfill Titus 2...and yes,I am just speaking about me.

 

[Molly]

It is not about ease, but about choosing a life that allows for certain priorities to be accomplished and how that can be easiest(allow for),or best done.

Twisting of scriptures,who? me? I do not believe any of us are doing that,we just read it differently. I,for one,take what it states about women as God's best and most literal explanation in the Bible about the role of women and how she can honor God's word,it says that at the end of the passage in Titus 2...so that the word of God will not be dishonored. I read it literally,without taking away or adding. It refers to priorities,and like I have said before,if your wife or any wife and mother can satisfy God's desire for a woman to have those priorites,then I don't have a problem with anything. My question has always been,how can a working mother of young children with a husband and household keep those priorities while working? I'm glad you and Margie have that worked out and she is accomplishing that,and if you 2 are fine with it and God is satisfied with it,that's not what I am talking about. I'm talking about the homes where that is not happening.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

I didn't mean to put you so much on the defensive, Molly. I just stated my view on how I interpreted what you wrote. There are probably others who saw it the same as I and it would be a bad thing if a bunch of us got together and said that my interpretation was the right viewpoint and and claimed it as a philosophy with no regard for your intent. I can imagine how that would feel and how frustrating it could be if you had to defend your position over and over.

I suppose I could go back and read it again and try to see it from your point of view and maybe try to understand that the intent was not necessarily what could be taken from the quotes I cited. That would be the Christian thing to do, wouldn't it? That would allow for individual interpretation of the writer's intent. It would also make me less judgemental.

Twisting words will bring one back into an argument if the cause is just. I hope we are beginning to see over the wall...

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Molly,
You are right that we are to do all for the glory of God and to please Him. When I began to serve my husband, train my children and keep my home the worst treatment and criticism I recieved was from professing Christians at my church. Then when we began to homeschool the same thing. There have been many other issues that we are have chosen to follow Biblical commands on and not the worlds reasoning and have been basically been outcasts since then. When I was following the world, working and being "all I can be" I was quite popular. The more I began to follow the Word the more hated I became and I suspect that will continue in the end days. It is a narrow path the one that Jesus has given us. It goes against all that the world is teaching.

Sue,
I think you misunderstood what I have said. My point it that I do not make an income. However I work very, very hard to be a wise steward of the money that my husband provides. I also work very hard in all I do. Serving my husband, training and teaching my children, cooking, cleaning and many other duties. A bulk of my time goes into the teaching and training of my children and it is hard work. When one homeschools their is not always as much time as we would like for the cleaning and sewing and gardening that I enjoy donig.
My main point was that my children go along with me while I work very hard.
I worked until my first child was one. I would drive to work in tears most days. I could not give my employer my full attention, nor my child. Because one cannot do both. You are either fulfulling the commands to train your children for the Lord or you have given them to someone else. Now, you can say the famous words I have heard here at this board alot and in some churches I have attended, that, "That is your opinion." Well, honestly I do not go by opinions. I go by the Word of God and the Word of God teaches that older women in the Lord are to teach the younger how to love their husbands, love their children, and be keepers at home. There is such a lack of this teaching because women have bit into the feminist lie that says, "YOu should not waste you talents at home wiping noses and butts." But I tell you every nose and buttocks I wipe is an offering to ALmighty Jesus that I am hoping one day these children whom I "waste" my talents on will be able to stand in this evil world against the tide of satan that is brewing even now.

HCL

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Sue,
I forgot to add one thing. I think there is a common misconconception among women who work outside of the home, by choice, of those who work in the home, by choice. It seems they feel we are wasting our talents and time when we could be out in the world making our marks and making a buck.
I am making my mark on the world by feeding my children the imperishable Word of God. I am most fulfilled in this profession.

ANd you comment about the seeds that we put down were nothing compared with what women in Bible days did. That too was an assumption. YOu did not ask me how large my yard was. I can give you alittle peep into what I di yesterday.

1. I fed my children and made sure they were clean and neat and properly clothed.
2. We learned Bible, and prayed.
3. I taught school to them.
4. I fed them and cleaned them again.
5. I dropped off my van for repairs and walked two miles back home with my children.
6. We straightened up the home and prepared dinner.
7. I raked the entire large yard with my smallest child, dropped seeds, reraked and then watched the watering to ensure it was completely covered.
8. Fed my children and husband.
9. Vaccuumed the upstairs of my house, it is not tiny. We have four bedrooms.
10. Folded laundry and put it away.
11. Cut out blocks with one of my children for a quilt we are making.
12. Helped my husband in any way he needed me.
13. Participated in family devotions with my family.
14. Read to the small ones while Dad read to big one.
15. Other things I probably cannot remember.
16. Prayer

Now, number 2 and 3 take a large amount of time. Homeschool familes dedicate a good portion of their day to training their children, plus we have the other work.

NOw, I am not trying to prove to you that what I do is right. I have only One to prove myself to and that is Jesus. For He is the One who will ask me what I did with my children and how I served and was a helpmeet to my husband.

HCL

[ May 03, 2002, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Headcoveredlady ]

 

[Clint Kritzer]

originally posted by headcovered lady: The more I began to follow the Word the more hated I became and I suspect that will continue in the end days.

So you have built an entire philosophy around Titus 2:3-5 and you claim that your interpretation is not opinion. Tell me, headcoveredlady, how do you resolve the final five words of Titus 2 into your philosophy given the above quote?

Let no man despise thee.

I contend that it is you who is discrediting the Scriptures which is exactly what Paul is warning against in these instructions.

...that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Do you think that Paul was worried about BELIEVERS blaspheming the Word? Or is it more likely that he was worried about the church being discredited because of the counter-cultural attitudes of the people within the church?

Like it or not, the views you express ARE opinion.

[ May 03, 2002, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Mr. Kritzer,
I prefer to follow the teachings in 1 Tim 2:9-16 and not instruct men who are fellow believers, of which you have said you are, am I right?
I will answer your question though. I try through the help of the HOLY SPIRIT to follow Titus 2:3-5 because I am not to blaspheme the Word of God, you are right that is what it saya. When is a woman is out of her God-given position as outlined in Titus 2:3-5 she blasphemes the Word of God.
You also commented that I am to have no man depise me, I am not sure what you are talking about. Because Jesus said that you will be hated like He was when you follow Him, and I have taken my cross.
I will end with that because I allowe my flesh to partake of debates with men as of recent and I know that it does glorify the Lord.

HCl

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Christ says that "all men will hate you" when He was sending out the disciples into the towns of Israel and He was warning the Twelve about the religious persecution that they would encounter. (Matthew 10:5-42) Compare that passage to Luke 6:22,

Blessed are you when men hate you,
And when they exclude you,
And revile you, and cast out your name as evil,
For the Son of Man's sake.

Have you adopted this philosophy for the sake of Christ, or is it for your own ends?

Even more importantly and pertaining to this conversation, look at the Words of Christ in verse 37-38 of the same chapter which would pertain to the fellow believers that you say cast you out,

37 "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
38 Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you."

I would also refer you back to Matthew 5:16,

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

Are your "good works" glorifying God before men? Or has your ostracization made you a lamp under a basket?

Also, Are you willing to just ignore the last five words of Titus 2 because of one verse in Matthew directed towards men who were about to put their very lives in danger?

 

[Clint Kritzer]

BTW, call me Clint. Everyone does.

 

[SueLyn]

I'm sorry HCL, but even your days are not the same as the days that women put in even from the years of 1920 to 1930.
You have a large yard, I have 4 acre, which is nothing compared to my grandmother with 600 acres or my mother with a mere 250 acres. My grandmother's children didn't attend public school either, so I guess you could call them homeschooled. And with several hundred head of cattle to tend to, horses and chicken, and not to mention the milking, and the harvesting of crops, my grandmother did not take all her children (16) with her to do these chores. Some of the older ones went with her, to work, but at least one older child was left in charge of the younger children.
You have a van and had to walk two miles to return home. My grandmother had a wagon and a team of horses, town was 12 miles away, where she went to buy and sell. Again all the children could not always go, most were left at home to take of chores.
Most women today have such conveniences as: a dishwasher, (grandmother carried water from the well and heated it on a cast iron stove with fire wood),
washer and dryer, (grandmother had a rub board, tub and water from the well),
electric or gas ovens and stoves and microwave ovens, (yep, grandmother had an old wood cook stove),
refrigerators, (grandmother had a smoke house, no way to really keep things cold, except in the winter, she usually home canned her food so they could eat during the winter)
Grandmother sewed her children's and husband's clothes by hand, she had no sewing machine, and her children had many dresses and shirts made from flour sacks.
Women did not have their smaller children with them all the time, for one reason, safety. A woman's day was a long and hard one, and there were too many ways that the young ones could get hurt. All I'm saying is that it would be illogical to believe that women of later years always had their children with them.

Also, if you are assuming I am a younger women, you are mistaken. I have raised all my children, the oldest is 24 the youngest is 21. I stayed home to be with my children, by choice, but in no way do I presume that all women should do the same as I did. All women are different and all children are different, all needs are different and all gifts are different. A person does as God leads them, God puts His people in different positions where they are needed. This is between the believer and our Heavenly Father.

It will soon be Mother's Day, so I wish all Mothers a happy and blessed day! Where would we be without our Mothers!

Sue

 

[Karen]

Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
You know, we just spent two days on this subject and saying it louder or saying it more doesn't change the facts. The interpretation of the Biblical references has been challenged and we've gone down this road for six months.
........

I will say again that what one person reads into the scripture as God's Will for them does not make it God's Will for everyone. Sorry, the Baptist have no popes, nor popesses.
.......
There are now three topics started this afternoon about this subject. This is a bandwidth gobbling waste of energy, in my opinion.

But if everyone is going to continue this,....

If we have to go down this road again, we will. But this is a lot of time spent on an issue that is up to personal interpretation and before it gets judgemental yet another time,.....[/i]

Boy, Clint, don't wander into the Calvinism forum. On there, for example, Chris recently asked at what point does failure to accept his version of Calvinism become sheer unbelief and disobedience.
Actually, Clint, in many if not most ways, I agree with your,Helen's, and Suekielyn's views of the issue of women working.
Or I could say that you all agree with me. Over almost two years I have made many of the points you all have, just not as close together or as detailed.

Yet I wonder why this subject makes you as mad as it does. You must have received some humdingers of private messages from the many women you state have left the board in tears. If they have, I am sorry but this IS a discussion board after all.
I think, personally, that Joy has expressed her opinions graciously. (And others too.)

I could choose to be offended by Joy's point of view, because after all, my grandmothers and mother worked. Maybe I am not offended by the other side, though, because I am old enough also to remember how hard they did work and how they would have preferred to be at home.

What you and I and Suekielyn should not do is confuse necessity with desire.
One of the other modern ways we are spoiled as Americans is in having the concept that work is a means of personal fulfillment and self-expression. My mother and others worked to provide food and other necessities, not because they had supportive husbands who wanted to help them fulfill their talents.

I remember a college sociology class LONG ago that pointed out that in the "old days" people defined themselves as part of a family or community. In the modern world, people define themselves by their jobs, and the job is an intrinsic part of their lives, not just a brutal necessity. "I AM an art teacher" for example, vs. "I'm one of the Jones family from Caldwell Co."

This topic persists because many people struggle with it, it is an interesting topic, and because you, Clint, brought it up in this forum. It kind of sounds like you are irritated, really, because you would prefer to state your piece and then have the discussion over.

(As I said earlier, don't go in the Calvinism forum or for that matter, the Bible translations forum if you think there should be tidy, conclusive discussions.) Some discussions will not really be over till the return of Christ.

Karen

[ May 03, 2002, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: Karen ]

 

[donnA]

my mother now works outside the home, she is 76, she works 40 hours a week, she is in charge of the fabric dept. at her local Wal-Mart Supercenter

YEA!
One of my favorite people.

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Sue,
Happy Mothers day to you too. You are right that we would nto be here without our mothers.

HCL

 

[donnA]

Acts9: 39Then Peter arose and went with them. When he had come, they brought him to the upper room. And all the widows stood by him weeping, showing the tunics and garments which Dorcas had made while she was with them

Acts16:4Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira,

Two bible women who worked, one of which went outside the home to do it.
I think any woman who goes outside the house to earn her living in whatever form is working out side the home, or who earns money from a skill at home is also working. So you would also include Ruth, and the Proverbs 31 woman, Deborah, and peobably more who don't come to mind at the moment.