So then the disciple's "unbelief" here has nothing to do with their belief in Jesus Christ.
Does this satisfy the OP questions then? That there is a "saving faith" and there is an "exercising faith". Each having a different application or purpose.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Moving any mountains lately?
- Thread starter steaver
- Start date
So then the disciple's "unbelief" here has nothing to do with their belief in Jesus Christ.
Does this satisfy the OP questions then? That there is a "saving faith" and there is an "exercising faith". Each having a different application or purpose.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
They were believers. Christ did not accuse them of being "unbelievers".
Here are the texts you have been working so hard to ignore -
Bob said:
At times I notice that - new colors and a bigger font have been of great value in dealing with "I still don't see anything" posts from those who would prefer that the texts in question did not exist.
So I am hoping this post will make it across that communication gap.
:jesus:
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I do agree that a "believer" can certainly become an "unbeliever" but this is not the case with the disciples in Matt 17. They continued to choose to serve in the role of ministry as Christ's followers - but they were at the time stuck in a mode of bickering over "who is the greatest" and I doubt that Christ's taking Peter, James and John to the top of the mountain while leaving 9-behind, made those 9 disciples "more passive" on the subject of "who is the greatest" since we see that debate kicking up immediately in Matt 18.
Thus your observation that at the time of the Matt 17 incident something was "defective" about the 9 left at the foot of the mountain - is correct. Something was amiss.
But the Matt 10 and Luke 10 examples above - show that the problem was not of the form - "they could not do what Matt 10 and Luke 10 said they were able to do because it was before the cross" - rather they had already demonstrated that they COULD do those very things pre-cross - given the power that Christ provided them.
in Christ,
Bob
Thus your observation that at the time of the Matt 17 incident something was "defective" about the 9 left at the foot of the mountain - is correct. Something was amiss.
But the Matt 10 and Luke 10 examples above - show that the problem was not of the form - "they could not do what Matt 10 and Luke 10 said they were able to do because it was before the cross" - rather they had already demonstrated that they COULD do those very things pre-cross - given the power that Christ provided them.
in Christ,
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
Bob, Marks account of this does not dismiss Matthews. There was three things a work that were the reason(s) the disciples commands did not work on these demons. They needed prayer, fasting and faith. They lacked all three.
The disciples had faith in Christ. They did not have faith enough to cast out this demon. Thus the reason for the OP. Is there "saving faith" and "exercising faith", with two seperate purposes.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Steaver - agreed. It is "both and" not "either or".
Thus we "notice" that Matthew does not say "you are unbelievers" nor does he say "you no longer believe I am the Messiah".
Matthew is the one that points out in Matt 10 that the disciples were given the power to cast out demons and to heal the sick.
Matthew is the one that points to the ongoing debate issue among the disciples "who is the greatest" Matt 18:1-2. Thus the weakness in their faith at the moment of Matt 17 had more to do with the current debate (exercise in selfish gainsaying among themselves) than some defect that was present all along.
Mark points out that the Disciples themselves would have needed to engage in reformation - in "prayer and fasting" while in such a state before they could have hoped to be successful in the Matt 10 ministry that Christ had already given them - and that they had already been successful in performing in months past.
Steaver said:
Well I agree that a weakness in faith that annuls effective ministry is not necessarily "falling from grace" that we see in Gal 5:4 nor is it even the Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" example of the saved becoming lost.
It is simply weakness shown while in the walk of faith.
in Christ,
Bob
Read John 10:5 ......or do you have a problem with unbelief too??
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
There is no question that John 10:5 teach that unbelievers "exist".
But in the case of Matt 18 it is one who is "fully forgiven" that experienced "forgiveness revoked".
Christ states it plainly "I FORGAVE you ALL that debt because you entreated me. Should you not ALSO have had mercy on your fellow slave, even AS I had mercy on you?... hand him over to the torturers until he shall repay ALL.... SO shall My Heavenly Father do to each one of you IF you do not forgive your brother from your heart" Matt 18:32-35.
Paul stated it in Romans 11 "you should FEAR for you stand ony by your FAITH. If He did not spare them - neither will He spare you".
in Christ,
Bob
But in the case of Matt 18 it is one who is "fully forgiven" that experienced "forgiveness revoked".
Christ states it plainly "I FORGAVE you ALL that debt because you entreated me. Should you not ALSO have had mercy on your fellow slave, even AS I had mercy on you?... hand him over to the torturers until he shall repay ALL.... SO shall My Heavenly Father do to each one of you IF you do not forgive your brother from your heart" Matt 18:32-35.
Paul stated it in Romans 11 "you should FEAR for you stand ony by your FAITH. If He did not spare them - neither will He spare you".
in Christ,
Bob
The veil is taken away from the heart when one comes to Christ. No truly born again believer can become an unbeliever after they were supernaturally changed. Jesus said "they will NEVER follow a stranger IN FACT they will run away".....why?....because GREATER is HE who is IN you than he who is in the world. Give credit to whom credit is due......the Holy Spirit of TRUTH stops you from being overcome with lies. Think it's your ability? Not!
Last edited by a moderator:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
1. Jesus never said "They WILL never follow a stranger"
2. The scripture on this point of "falling from Grace" and being "severed FROM Christ" Gal 5:4 is pretty clear.
In Jer 18:7-10 God's Word makes very clear the conditional nature of His promises. Which is why in Matt 18 you see the clear statment "I forgave you ALL that debt" only to be followed up with "turn him over to the torturers until he shall repay ALL" and ending with "so shall my Father do to each one of you IF you do not forgive your brother from your heart".
And again in Romans 11 "you stand only by your faith.. FEAR for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you"
1Cor 11 "I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified".
in Christ,
Bob
John 10:5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice." Might rethink that. :type:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
"Will never" is the point in question.
Notice that Paul himself does not believe the verse can be bent to mean that there is no possibility of the saints turning from the right course and listening to error.
2 Cor 11
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!
Acts 20
28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
And of course we all know the apostasy that took place in the dark ages.
Hence my remarks in my previous post -noticing these applicable texts.
in Christ,
Bob
Notice that Paul himself does not believe the verse can be bent to mean that there is no possibility of the saints turning from the right course and listening to error.
2 Cor 11
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!
Acts 20
28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
And of course we all know the apostasy that took place in the dark ages.
Hence my remarks in my previous post -noticing these applicable texts.
Bob said:
in Christ,
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
Sorry Bob but the scriptures clearly point out that true believers cannot follow after a lies..... they will figure it out. Read 1 John where he says "he who is of God listens to us"....not might or hopefully. He is reiterating what Jesus said in John 8. You plainly said Jesus never said....but I proved you wrong and that goes against your belief. Those who have eternal life shall NEVER perish. Look up the word NEVER and see if it changed it's meaning. You might fool Gods children SOME of the times,but not all Gods children ALL of the time. They will eventually realize it and see it for what it is because of the Holy Spirit living on the inside helping to discern the precious from the vile.
Last edited by a moderator:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Paul's statements in Acts 20 and 2cor 11 clearly refute the notion that there was no danger of honest church members being deceived by false doctrine.
Don't know how that can be made more obvious so we may just have to "differ" until you find a way to work out a soluiton where Acts 20 and 2Cor 11 fit into your model.
As I stated there is no "will NEVER listen to" statement by Christ regarding false teachers -- no not one in all of scripture. Thus Christ's teaching leaves room for the hard facts listed in Acts 20, and 2Cor 11.
Turns out there are saved saints - in every denomination and here is the big hint -- they do not all agree on doctrine.
But if that were not evident enough - let us examine the extreme case of someone who thinks that "only Baptists" are really saved saints.
In the Baptist denomination alone there is everything under the sun - from the Bible-based 7th-Day Baptists and Free Will Baptist all the way over to the extreme charismatic and snake handling Baptists. (And please - let us not even begin to get into the Calvinist-vs-Arminian clashes we have seen on this very board in years past
). Undeniable doctrinal difference between the various Baptist factions and yet saved saints in each one.
Pretty hard to have the eyes opened to 2Cor 11 and Acts 20 and the many differences that we still see today -- and yet imagine that all the saints agree on all doctrine - having never been led astray on any point of doctrine.
Bob
Don't know how that can be made more obvious so we may just have to "differ" until you find a way to work out a soluiton where Acts 20 and 2Cor 11 fit into your model.
As I stated there is no "will NEVER listen to" statement by Christ regarding false teachers -- no not one in all of scripture. Thus Christ's teaching leaves room for the hard facts listed in Acts 20, and 2Cor 11.
Turns out there are saved saints - in every denomination and here is the big hint -- they do not all agree on doctrine.
But if that were not evident enough - let us examine the extreme case of someone who thinks that "only Baptists" are really saved saints.
In the Baptist denomination alone there is everything under the sun - from the Bible-based 7th-Day Baptists and Free Will Baptist all the way over to the extreme charismatic and snake handling Baptists. (And please - let us not even begin to get into the Calvinist-vs-Arminian clashes we have seen on this very board in years past
). Undeniable doctrinal difference between the various Baptist factions and yet saved saints in each one.Pretty hard to have the eyes opened to 2Cor 11 and Acts 20 and the many differences that we still see today -- and yet imagine that all the saints agree on all doctrine - having never been led astray on any point of doctrine.
- 2 Corinthians 11:3
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. - 1 Timothy 6:21
which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith Grace be with you. - 2 Timothy 2:18
men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some. - 2 Peter 2:15
forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
- Revelation 2:20
'But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
Doctrine of basic truth cannot be debated Bob. There is a big diffrence on the fundamentals that cannot be comprimised and in house debatable issues between Saints. What seperates cults from christianity? Fundament Doctrine! John 10:5 Jesus means what He said. Mathew 24:24
Last edited by a moderator:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
If it is your desire to bend John 10:5 so as to contradict the rest of scripture -- inserting the word "never" into the text - then that is your free will choice to do so.
I simply appeal to the fact that scripture alone flatly contradicts your position. If your only response to the devastating weight of scripture against your man-made-tradition is to then claim that those who do not agree with you are not saved - so be it.
Let the unbiased objective reader then decide since the lines of discussion are so clearly drawn thanks to your choosing not to address the texts that so clearly refute your ideas.
in Christ,
Bob
I simply appeal to the fact that scripture alone flatly contradicts your position. If your only response to the devastating weight of scripture against your man-made-tradition is to then claim that those who do not agree with you are not saved - so be it.
Let the unbiased objective reader then decide since the lines of discussion are so clearly drawn thanks to your choosing not to address the texts that so clearly refute your ideas.
in Christ,
Bob
Jesus said "you do error not knowing the scripture nor the power of God". You didn't know the scripture I showed was even in the Bible nor Gods power to keep His saints.
Last edited by a moderator:
Yes Bob. If you are trying to be justified by the Law, you have cut yourself off from Christ. You will not come to Christ if you are convinced that keeping the Law will save you. You are separating yourself from the grace of God. You cannot be saved by works, only by grace.
Nothing in this passage speaks of losing one's salvation.