Multi-site churches

[JohnDeereFan]

The church where I serve has multiple sites in the city we serve. But we've not extended beyond that region because we don't think it is appropriate to take our ministry and go into another context.

That said, we use both video venues and live preaching on an alternating basis.

Multisite churches are not unscriptural, though they do represent an ecclesiological challenge if done poorly or simply to push one pastor's agenda. They can be used in pretty amazing ways to revitalize churches that are dead or dying.

They might seem out of place in traditional models but can be pretty well used when done appropriately imho.

So, let's say I'm part of one of these franchises and I am struggling with sin. How do I get pastoral counseling? Or what if I'm found to be in unrepentant sin? Who disciplines me?

How does an absentee "pastor" know the congregation his sermons are broadcast to?

What's the difference between one of these absentee "pastors" and my downloading a sermon off iTunes?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

So, let's say I'm part of one of these franchises and I am struggling with sin. How do I get pastoral counseling? Or what if I'm found to be in unrepentant sin? Who disciplines me?

The church I attended in the Springs had a pastoral counseling department, with offices in both locations.

How does an absentee "pastor" know the congregation his sermons are broadcast to?

He's not "absentee" in the cases to which I refer. He's only a few miles from any site, and he spends some Sundays at sites other than the main campus.

What's the difference between one of these absentee "pastors" and my downloading a sermon off iTunes?

You got 1,000 people sitting in your living room or den watching it with you?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

The church I attended in the Springs had a pastoral counseling department, with offices in both locations.

And where does the absentee "pastor" fit into this?

He's not "absentee" in the cases to which I refer. He's only a few miles from any site, and he spends some Sundays at sites other than the main campus.

"Some Sundays"? Wow. Sounds like he's really devoted.

You got 1,000 people sitting in your living room or den watching it with you?

So then, the only difference is how many other people are listening to the sermon?

Does David Jeremiah counsel with individual couples

How would I know?

Mega-church pastors aren't "intimately involved" with their congregations like the rural country church pastor is, either.

Well then, maybe that's another good sign mega churches aren't a good thing.

He's preaching to the whole church every Sunday, isn't he?

No. He's preaching to one church with his sermon broadcast to other churches.

No, the difference is, downloading a sermon on iTunes, you don't have the fellowship I had in the Springs, even if the pastor was ten miles away from where I was sitting.

Why not? What sort of fellowship are you getting by listening to a sermon broadcast that I can't get by listening to a sermon podcast?

 

[Salty]

So, let's say I'm part of one of these franchises ...

John,

I like that term - franchise!

 

[quantumfaith]

John,

I like that term - franchise!

We use and prefer the term Strategic Partner. Franchise's usually pay a fee, we do not, we are financially independent. We are independent in terms of pastoral staff.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

And where does the absentee "pastor" fit into this?

Does David Jeremiah counsel with individual couples? All of them that need it? Or does his counseling ministry staff do most of that work? Mega-church pastors aren't "intimately involved" with their congregations like the rural country church pastor is, either.

"Some Sundays"? Wow. Sounds like he's really devoted.

He's preaching to the whole church every Sunday, isn't he? Even if it's spread out along a ten-mile corridor in Colorado Springs?

So then, the only difference is how many other people are listening to the sermon?

No, the difference is, downloading a sermon on iTunes, you don't have the fellowship I had in the Springs, even if the pastor was ten miles away from where I was sitting.

 

[agedman]

I'd like to suggest that the "multi church" as this thread presents is actually contrary to Scriptures.

How is the assembly to organize.

The scriptures are very clear that they are to select leadership from their own and from their own that have proven and documented consistency as a believer.

I don't see a video message as even close to meeting such.

I would not be any part of such a "church."

 

[preachinjesus]

JohnDeereFan, you've definitely listed some specific concerns and relevant questions. I'll do my best to reply.

So, let's say I'm part of one of these franchises and I am struggling with sin. How do I get pastoral counseling? Or what if I'm found to be in unrepentant sin? Who disciplines me?

We have a full time Christian, biblical counseling department at our campuses that we refer our covenant members to when a counseling need arises. Given our size, our pastoral staff can do counseling but we prefer if they refer those under their care to an appropriate counselor who is specifically trained to handle their situations.

We also have full pastoral staffs at our campuses to oversee and provide ministry at those locations. Though there is a senior leadership team over all the campuses and the church, there are departmental staff members at each location dedicated to seeing everything works and ministry is provided equally at all locations.

How does an absentee "pastor" know the congregation his sermons are broadcast to?

Obviously I disagree with the term "absentee "pastor"" since our teaching team rotates through the campuses frequently. While video is also a component of our multi-site strategy, live preaching is the second part of that strategy.

Since our size at our original campus is rather large, you get about as much interaction with a preacher on our teaching team as you would in a similar sized church. If you want to get together with a pastor

What's the difference between one of these absentee "pastors" and my downloading a sermon off iTunes?

You can't do an iTunes sermon in community. Preaching is not the terminus of our ministry model, community and service is our goal. We say, from the platform often, that if your only environment is the worship venue and not the small group, or volunteer team, or missions opportunities you are missing the point of our church and mission. I listen to plenty of iTunes podcasts (about 10 a week) but that isn't church, church is where Spirit led community exists to serve others and proclaim the Gospel where we live work and play.

 

[quantumfaith]

I'd like to suggest that the "multi church" as this thread presents is actually contrary to Scriptures.

How is the assembly to organize.

The scriptures are very clear that they are to select leadership from their own and from their own that have proven and documented consistency as a believer.

I don't see a video message as even close to meeting such.

I would not be any part of such a "church."

Good for you Agedman.

 

[SaggyWoman]

Don't knock something until you try something. I have attended a local church like that and would not necessarily have a problem with it. But I have already been committed to a one site church.

 

[preachinjesus]

I'd like to suggest that the "multi church" as this thread presents is actually contrary to Scriptures.

How is the assembly to organize.

Actually, I'd suggest that multi-site strategy, within the confines of a local community (not bouncing from city to city), is closer to the NT period than anything else. The house church was, by AD 70, the primary means of community and they were distributed throughout the different cities. Since a house church could only accommodate about 20-30 believers, there needed to be multiple houses in any given city. You'll notice in Philemon, he is a leader of the church that meets in his house.

As a result the leadership and organization of the house churches, distributed across a city (say Corinth), was independent of any external authority but did have a primary leadership core, likely the leaders of the house churches, that met to discuss church things, administer the ordinances, and perform church discipline. At the end of the first century we see, in 1 Clement and Ignatius Epistles, that a single overseer, an episkopos, arises in various cities to lead all the congregations.

So multi-site can be found in Scripture. You just might not be familiar with those passages and the background information.

The scriptures are very clear that they are to select leadership from their own and from their own that have proven and documented consistency as a believer.

I don't see a video message as even close to meeting such.

I would not be any part of such a "church."

Seems there are a lot of presuppositions here. One of which is that the local sites lack eldership or leadership. Each of our sites has a elder board, or pastoral staff, and lay leadership that are responsible for their site and is part of a larger leadership team of all the campuses.

If you, or anyone, isn't comfortable in these churches that's fine. There are some multi-sites that I have a problem with. Just don't attend, but also be generous and recognize there are legitimate Scriptural grounds for those who do meet this way.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

We have a full time Christian, biblical counseling department at our campuses that we refer our covenant members to when a counseling need arises. Given our size, our pastoral staff can do counseling but we prefer if they refer those under their care to an appropriate counselor who is specifically trained to handle their situations.

So, no pastoral counseling, then.

We also have full pastoral staffs at our campuses to oversee and provide ministry at those locations.

Then why the franchise model, not to mention that, when you say "provide ministry", by your own admission, you're excluding counseling?

Though there is a senior leadership team over all the campuses and the church, there are departmental staff members at each location dedicated to seeing everything works and ministry is provided equally at all locations.

But, again, no pastor.

Obviously I disagree with the term "absentee "pastor"

You can disagree with it all you like, but you've already admitted that there is no pastor there.

Since our size at our original campus is rather large, you get about as much interaction with a preacher on our teaching team as you would in a similar sized church.

So, no pastor. Just somebody on the "teaching team".

You can't do an iTunes sermon in community.

And what's the difference?

Preaching is not the terminus of our ministry model, community and service is our goal.

...as opposed to the Biblical description of ecclesiology and the worship service.

I listen to plenty of iTunes podcasts (about 10 a week) but that isn't church

I never said that it's church. I asked you what the difference is between me listening to a sermon preached by an absentee preacher via iTunes and you listening to a sermon preached by an absentee preacher via Skype or whatever means your franchise uses.

church is where Spirit led community exists to serve others and proclaim the Gospel where we live work and play.

Actually, you're confusing ecclesiology and evangelism.

Actually, I'd suggest that multi-site strategy, within the confines of a local community (not bouncing from city to city), is closer to the NT period than anything else. The house church was, by AD 70, the primary means of community and they were distributed throughout the different cities. Since a house church could only accommodate about 20-30 believers, there needed to be multiple houses in any given city.

So, your church can only accommodate 20-30 people?

So multi-site can be found in Scripture. You just might not be familiar with those passages and the background information.

OK. Name those verses.

One of which is that the local sites lack eldership or leadership. Each of our sites has a elder board, or pastoral staff, and lay leadership that are responsible for their site and is part of a larger leadership team of all the campuses.

But no pastor.

If you, or anyone, isn't comfortable in these churches that's fine. There are some multi-sites that I have a problem with. Just don't attend, but also be generous and recognize there are legitimate Scriptural grounds for those who do meet this way.

How can I, when you won't show us where in scripture we see church franchises and absentee pastors?

 

[agedman]

The "house church" were local assemblies.

The church in the earliest form moved from house to house but moved as a complete assembly. There is no account of multiple house meetings at the same time by multiple groups.

Furthermore, the "house church" is NOT the same as what is being presented in this thread. Rather, the folks are meeting as separate assemblies bound merely by electronics and modern constructs that are not Scriptural.

Secondly, there is no evidence that the NT churches such as the Ephesian church or Corinth church were not local assemblies gathered in one place.

For instance, the Ephesian assembly hall is well documented here.

No place in the Scriptures is the assembly divided into "house churches" meeting on the Lord's day to worship with some pastor or their staff running from place to place.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Don't knock something until you try something. I have attended a local church like that and would not necessarily have a problem with it. But I have already been committed to a one site church.

Actually, yes, I can knock something without trying it. Heroin, for example.

I don't have to be part of something Unbiblical and impractical to know it's not a good idea.

 

[agedman]

Actually, yes, I can knock something without trying it. Heroin, for example.

I don't have to be part of something Unbiblical and impractical to know it's not a good idea.

If I have read the strength of your statements correctly, we should be in agreement.

Can you see any specific differences in what we are both contending?

 

[quantumfaith]

The "house church" were local assemblies.

The church in the earliest form moved from house to house but moved as a complete assembly. There is no account of multiple house meetings at the same time by multiple groups.

How do you know this?

Furthermore, the "house church" is NOT the same as what is being presented in this thread. Rather, the folks are meeting as separate assemblies bound merely by electronics and modern constructs that are not Scriptural.

Not sure what your "beef" is here

Secondly, there is no evidence that the NT churches such as the Ephesian church or Corinth church were not local assemblies gathered in one place.

For instance, the Ephesian assembly hall is well documented here.

No place in the Scriptures is the assembly divided into "house churches" meeting on the Lord's day to worship with some pastor or their staff running from place to place.

And your church is a exact model of the earliest churches of the NT era? How about sharing the criteria and properties that you think, make a church a proper church.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

If I have read the strength of your statements correctly, we should be in agreement.

Can you see any specific differences in what we are both contending?

I'm not familiar with all your posts, but I agree with the last one. The other poster's example of NT house churches isn't the same as multi-site churches.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I'd like to suggest that the "multi church" as this thread presents is actually contrary to Scriptures.

How is the assembly to organize.

The scriptures are very clear that they are to select leadership from their own and from their own that have proven and documented consistency as a believer.

I don't see a video message as even close to meeting such.

I would not be any part of such a "church."

We do not define a concept by defining a word. For example, if someone asks us about salvation, we would not respond by saying "the meaning of the word sōteria in the New Testament is deliverance from danger." Similarly, if someone asks us about justification, we would not respond by saying "the meaning of the word dikaioō is to acquit of wrongdoing." Both salvation and justification are far richer in meaning than the mere definitions of the New Testament words translated for them. So it goes for church; its meaning is much more than the definition of the word ekklēsia. Thinking that church can be discussed by appealing to a definition of the word ekklēsia commits a methodological error.

Second, while it is true that a meaning of the word ekklēsia is “assembly,” it is only one of the meanings of that word. An assembly is certainly in view when Paul addresses celebrating the Lord’s Supper in 1 Corinthians 11:17-34, and regulates the exercise of speaking in tongues and prophecy in 1 Corinthians 14:26-40, when the church is gathered together.

But ekklēsia cannot mean “assembly” in Acts 8:1, for example, when Luke’s point is that the church was "scattered" -- not assembled -- because of persecution. In fact, the word "church" can refer to meetings of Christians in houses ...

Acts 12, NASB
12 And when he realized this, he went to the house of Mary, the mother of John who was also called Mark, where many were gathered together and were praying.​

... the church in a city ...

1 Corinthians 1
1 Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
1 Thessalonians 1
1 Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.​

... all the believers in a region ...

Acts 9
31 So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase.​

... the universal church ...

1 Corinthians 10
32 32 Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God;​

... and even the saints already in heaven.

Hebrews 12
23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,​

Saying that the word ekklēsia means “assembly” commits a lexical error.

If the dismissal of biblical warrant for multi-site churches may be dismissed because of a methodological and lexical error, then what biblical evidence does exist for it?

The church in Corinth expressed its life and ministry through meetings that took place in the houses, the physical dwellings, of its members.

Accordingly, the church of Corinth would gather regularly for worship in the home of Aquila and Priscilla, as in 1 Corinthians 16:19, "the house of a man named Titius Justus" (Acts 18:7), the home of Crispus (Acts 18:8), the house of Stephanas (1 Corinthians 16:15), and others. These "church gatherings" distributed among the houses stood in contrast with the "whole church" assembling together, probably in the home of Gaius (1 Corinthians 14:23; Romans 16:23). Importantly, each of the home-based groups included only parts of the church, i.e. a subset of its membership. Still, each home-based gathering was a legitimate gathering of the church of Corinth.

So, if it is permissible to see the church as gathered in several different houses in several different groups, how are you going to tell us it is not permissible for it to gather in two or three or more different sites around a city? You can't.

 

[preachinjesus]

So, no pastoral counseling, then.

If someone wants to meet with a pastor for pastoral counseling, they can definitely do so. We simply prefer and recommend seeing someone with a degree in Christian counseling, our counselors all have masters and above and are certified Christian counselors.

Then why the franchise model, not to mention that, when you say "provide ministry", by your own admission, you're excluding counseling?

Why is pastoral counseling so important for you? I don't see it in Scripture as a requirement of ministry or qualification for ministers.

You can disagree with it all you like, but you've already admitted that there is no pastor there.

I think our definitions of pastor are different. We have campus pastors, a formal designation, at all locations as well as different departmental pastoral staff members. (i.e. children's pastor, student pastor, adult pastor, etc)

So, no pastor. Just somebody on the "teaching team".

Our teaching team is composed of ordained men who are pastors.

And what's the difference?

I've explained myself above. Please reference it.

...as opposed to the Biblical description of ecclesiology and the worship service.

There is no uniform biblical understanding of ecclesiological formation or leadership function. Indeed, one can trace multiple forms of ecclesiological expression in the NT and early post-apostolic period. One of the challenges with the NT descriptions of early Christian ecclesiology is that these churches were experiencing massive shifts in paradigm focus and dealing with ethnic divides along with false teachers. Ecclesiology was in process of being developed and didn't really get settled for a long time, beyond the first century. So I don't see a mandate from the NT about one form of ecclesiology.

Also, re the worship service, there is no standard liturgy or worship format prescribed in the NT. Indeed, our forms of worship services are mightily different than those of the NT and early church period.

I never said that it's church. I asked you what the difference is between me listening to a sermon preached by an absentee preacher via iTunes and you listening to a sermon preached by an absentee preacher via Skype or whatever means your franchise uses.

Well, clearly we disagree here.

Actually, you're confusing ecclesiology and evangelism.

No I'm not.

So, your church can only accommodate 20-30 people?

I didn't say the examples given were normative in terms of size, but using a historical reference.

OK. Name those verses.

Let me get back with you, I'm traveling today and am getting ready to hop on a flight for some time.

How can I, when you won't show us where in scripture we see church franchises and absentee pastors?

I think we simply disagree about the nature of the pastorate and responsibilities/assumptions therein. We have a campus pastor at every campus who is responsible for that campus and the ministry there.

 

[quantumfaith]

“Some people find fault like there is a reward for it”
― Zig Ziglar