Music and Meat

[Pastor Larry]

I don't prooftext things That is the worst kind of argumentation.

How much study have you done on this? Have you read what anyone says? Surely you have experienced the power of music.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Daniel, I have tied this in to music countless times. Music communicates. When it communicates ungodly things, it is wrong. Again, I am not sure how else to put that. It seems self-explanatory.

 

[Daniel]

Yes, I know the power of music. Being a professional musician myself, I have experienced its power. I am just struggling with many of the arguments on this board that catagorize certain music as evil. I do not believe or see how music itself can be evil. No one has been able to prove this to me.

I am, however, a little confused when you say you don't proofext (from Scripture). Who gives a rat's rear end what I think as compared to sound thinking measured by the scriptures? Did I possibly misunderstand you from the above post? I was under the impression that we used the scriptures as the benchmark for all that we believed. We do need the proof from the text to make any moral judgment such as the one you are doing this day about music.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What you said is that music can communicate sinful emotion. You have not demonstrated how it does this, nor have you explained what emotion is sinful.

Actually I did. Music is an emotional language. It communicates, long before you put any words with it. Music that elicits sinful emotions (responses to the language) is sinful music.</font>[/QUOTE]You haven't answered the "how?" yet.

You also haven't answered what emotion is sinful.

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I am not sure how much more plain I can make this.

I understand the assertion you keep repeating. What tenor and I are asking you to do is reveal the mechanics of your logic. How does this transmission of sin from the communicator through a medium to the audience occur?

 

[tenor]

Originally posted by Travelsong:

I understand the assertion you keep repeating. What tenor and I are asking you to do is reveal the mechanics of your logic. How does this transmission of sin from the communicator through a medium to the audience occur? [/QB][/QUOTE]


Good point Travel.

Tim

 

[Daniel]

URGENT BULLETIN:

It has been determined that the color yellow is evil. So many of the darker criminals and societal menaces wear the color yellow. In fact, some people have reported that the color yellow makes them want to do evil things. Therefore, the color yellow is evil.

Get it?

 

[Pastor Larry]

I am, however, a little confused when you say you don't proofext (from Scripture). Who gives a rat's rear end what I think as compared to sound thinking measured by the scriptures? Did I possibly misunderstand you from the above post? I was under the impression that we used the scriptures as the benchmark for all that we believed. We do need the proof from the text to make any moral judgment such as the one you are doing this day about music.

Scripture does not directly styles of music. STyles of music are really modern phenomena. It does address music, by talking about "song of the harlot," "new song," etc. In fact, Scripture has much to say about music. But it would be absurd to expect Scripture to address modern genres. They didn't exist back then.

Scripture does give us principles about things we should think about, have in our lives, expose ourselves to, etc. Texts such as Phil 4:8 and many others talk about this kind of discernment and excellence. Studying the topic of music is far more than most people are willing to do to find an answer to this. But the topic is not that hard. Certain styles of music developed because of the message that was desired to communicate. Not even Christians should forget that.

You haven't answered the "how?" yet.

The "how" of what? The how of musical communication? It communicates at the level of emotions, not at the level of propositions. That is, incidentally, why virtually any discussion of music becomes so heated. People's emotions are involved and the last acceptable thing is to tell someone that their emotions are wrong.

You also haven't answered what emotion is sinful.[/qutoe]Yes, I did. I listed a number of emotions that are sinful.

How does this transmission of sin from the communicator through a medium to the audience occur?

Who said that sin is transmitted through music? I haven't seen that anywhere. PErhaps part of this discussion is that you really aren't interacting with what is being said. I haven't talked much in depth becuase of time. I need to cut back here since I have actual responsibilities. My point is not to draw a line for you. My point is to remind us all that music is moral.

 

[Travelsong]

Who said that sin is transmitted through music? I haven't seen that anywhere. PErhaps part of this discussion is that you really aren't interacting with what is being said. I haven't talked much in depth becuase of time. I need to cut back here since I have actual responsibilities. My point is not to draw a line for you. My point is to remind us all that music is moral.

If music can be sinful, then by extension listening to it is as well no? In this sense there is a transmission of sin. It is a communication. The performer expresses a sinful sentiment, aims it at the listener through the medium of audible signals, and the listener is somehow tempted to sin as well?

I'm asking you to explain the mechanics of this. While there may be many different ways to repeat the assertion that music can be sinful or communicate evil, there is really only one way to ask "How?" That is the question you need to answer.

I would also like you to clarify what specific sinful emotion music communicates.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by tenor:
Can choice in music and/or worship style fall under the principles given by Paul in his discussion of "eating meat sacrificed to idols?"

Choice in music and worship style is very subjective. It may such an equivalent to one person, but not to another. Your question is one that has been asked since probably the first century. Don't forget that Pauls also says to let each person be convinced in his own mind.

 

[Daniel]

Yellow is evil! (see above)

 

[Pastor Larry]

If music can be sinful, then by extension listening to it is as well no?

Yes.

In this sense there is a transmission of sin.

No.

I'm asking you to explain the mechanics of this. While there may be many different ways to repeat the assertion that music can be sinful or communicate evil, there is really only one way to ask "How?" That is the question you need to answer.

I have answered it, and don't have the time to go into more detail. As I have pointed out, this is a fact accepted by virtually all except those in Christian music.

I would also like you to clarify what specific sinful emotion music communicates.

Already did that as well. Asking it two or three times won't change it. I gave some examples.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Choice in music and worship style is very subjective.

To some degree, but not entirely.

Don't forget that Pauls also says to let each person be convinced in his own mind.

But remember what he says that about ... things about which we have liberty. He does not say that about things that we don't have liberty about. And we are talking about the latter category ... Things that are objectively wrong.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Yellow is evil! (see above)

Excellent ... When you don't know how to engage in the debate, just made ridiculous statements. That always helps clarify.

 

[Daniel]

Larry, Larry. I do know how to engage in debate. I just haven't actually seen a real debate today. I simply had to resort to the Limbaugh tactic of using absurdity to illustrate the absurd.

Larry, you can't just make a statement and then expect us to "buy it" without the proof, documentation, scripture, etc. That just won't fly.

Come on, Larry, play fair!

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
To some degree, but not entirely.

In the scope of your arguements on the topic, It is definitely an issue of subjectivity, which you are unforunately attempting to objectify uwing your own rationale as the measuring stick.

But remember what he says that about ... things about which we have liberty. He does not say that about things that we don't have liberty about. And we are talking about the latter category ... Things that are objectively wrong.

Since you have failed to provide any scriptural backing for your claim of certain styles of music being objectively wrong, Paul's mandate to let each be convinced in his own mind stands.

 

[tenor]

I would like to recommend a book that may aid in this discussion. The book is "Music Through the Eyes of Faith" by Harold M. Best.

I read this work a few years ago and these recent threads have encouraged me to pull it out again. It relates to these topics rather well.

This book can be basically described as a theology of music.

The chapter titles are:

1 God's Creation, Human Creativity, and Music Making
2 What Does Music Mean?
3 Musical Pluralism and Diversity
4 The Aesthetics of Musical Pluralism
5 Personal Excellence, Success and COmpetition
6 General Issues in Musical Quality
7 The Nature of Worship, Faith, Grace, and Music Making
8 The World of Christian Popular Music
9 The Practice of CHurch Music (I): Music and the Worshipping CHurch
10 The Practice of CHurch Music (II): Music and the Witnessing Church

This book may assist our discussion.

Tim

 

[Pastor Larry]

Larry, Larry. I do know how to engage in debate. I just haven't actually seen a real debate today. I simply had to resort to the Limbaugh tactic of using absurdity to illustrate the absurd.

Larry, you can't just make a statement and then expect us to "buy it" without the proof, documentation, scripture, etc. That just won't fly.

Come on, Larry, play fair!

There has been no attempt to engage in a deep debate. I don't have the time for it. I recommended several secular sources to start off with regarding meaning in music. The proof is in every day experience, in testimony from the secular and sacred world, and in teh testimony of God's word.

In the scope of your arguements on the topic, It is definitely an issue of subjectivity, which you are unforunately attempting to objectify uwing your own rationale as the measuring stick.

This shows you have missed the whole debate. I haven't argued for "my rationale as the measuring stick." All I have asserted is that there is a line. I haven't said where that line is.

But alas, I don't have time to keep going around about it. There is plenty of information available. I would encourage you to read and study both sides.

I would recommend beginning with John Makujina, Measuring the Music. It will be a good starting place.

 

[Daniel]

Thanks,anyway, Larry. I've taught the various books on music theory and application to many different age groups. (Remember I am a music educator.)I DO know where you're coming from. I do not agree with your position, and I also respect your right to hold such a position.

Please be very to not preach this music "doctrine" as a "thus saith the Lord" type of thing. I believe you experience the frown of God when you attempt to preach in that manner.

I would have loved to have developed this more with you. I am sorry you wouldn't engage us.

Please remember the yellow example earlier. There is a huge lesson in that illustration if your heart is open.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If music can be sinful, then by extension listening to it is as well no?

Yes.

In this sense there is a transmission of sin.

No.</font>[/QUOTE]How so?

I'm asking you to explain the mechanics of this. While there may be many different ways to repeat the assertion that music can be sinful or communicate evil, there is really only one way to ask "How?" That is the question you need to answer.

I have answered it, and don't have the time to go into more detail. As I have pointed out, this is a fact accepted by virtually all except those in Christian music.

You've not once even attempted to answer this.

I would also like you to clarify what specific sinful emotion music communicates.

Already did that as well. Asking it two or three times won't change it. I gave some examples.

No you haven't.

I'd like just one shred of evidence already to support the assertion that music can communicate evil.

I would also like you to demonstrate exactly how it can do this.

How many times must this be asked of you?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Daniel,

If you are a music educator, then this should not be unfamiliar to you. Your "Yellow example" was totally irrelevant. It had absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Travelsong, You ask "How many times must it be asked? The answer is "once," becuase that is all it took to get it answered? Do you deny that music communicates emotions? Do you deny that some emotions are sinful? If you don't (and you shouldn't) then you must conclude that some music is sinful. Music communicates at the level of emotion, not at the level of proposition. I have already mentioned that.

You guys really need to do some study in this. I don't have time to keep hashing it out. There are numerous works available that help discuss it.