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I have a bachelors degree in Music Education. I had been a full-time Music Minster for over 20 years, and now I am a Senior Pastor/Worship Leader (with a M.Div. and a Th.D.). I know music.Todd W. White said:Lots of interesting comments in this thread.
While driving back in the storm last night from Dallas to Tulsa, several things came to my mind about this topic, and how to approach it. I would like to offer the following first, and will present the others later.
First, some observations:
1. Some people who disagree with the points Dr. Garlock presents react to them (and, perhaps, him), rather than listen to them with an open mind and heart. I'm not talking about anyone here, I'm just making an general observation based on around 35 years of trying to explain these concepts to people who have never heard them before. So, rather than listen, they often react, and tune out what good might be in the message.
2. Those who have heard them, and rejected them, are often very defensive, sometimes downright antagonistic, towards anyone who holds these as their personal convictions. This makes it difficult to communicate with them in a civil conversation about the topic.
3. Those who have reacted negatively to these concepts can also be prone to become judgmental and derisive of those who have embraced them, and vice-versa. This is not a salvific issue, but it is, I believe, still very important. Yet, there is no place, in my view, of nastiness by one side towards the other, no matter who is doing it.
4. Trying to present these concepts is never easy. This is especially true when the person with whom I am trying to share doesn't know anything about music. It is also true of those who don't know much about the Bible. It has been my experience over the past 40 years, as a church member, church musician, church sound operator, church sound system designer, installer, and trainer of church musicians in proper sound system use, as a church music minister, and now as a pastor, that most pastors don't know anything about music and most music people in churches don't know anything about the Bible. I know that is a broad generalization, but it is nonetheless my observation.
5. Lastly, it has been my observation that perhaps we've been attempting to present these concepts in the wrong way. A better way to say that might be that there could be a more effective way to present them that those who do not know about or understand them might be able to grasp more easily.
This is some of what came to mind last night driving home in the storm.
That said, I'd like to try to go "at it" from a different angle. I believe that it IS possible for Christians to discuss matters of any type without resorting to innuendo, slams, slaps, smart-aleck remarks, etc. I will certainly refrain from it, and would ask everyone who is interested in this topic to do the same.
With that, I pose three questions for all of us, including myself, to answer before I spend a lot of time on this -
1. Will you approach this discussion with an open heart? Is your heart's desire to allow Christ to be in control of every part of your life?
2. Would you be willing to accept as valid any teaching that is confirmed by sound, Bible exegesis, even if it conflicts with your current beliefs and/or practice?
3. If you find it to be correct, would you be willing to change your mind - and your practice - regarding the subject and follow what God teaches you?
I think we need to ask ourselves these questions privately (not looking for public answers, here - I have no interest in "setting someone up" for later ridicule or something like that). If folks aren't willing to take a fresh look at it with an open heart and mind - including myself - then we're wasting our time here.
What say YOU? Should we proceed with serious hearts, truly desiring to know the truth, or do we drop it and go on to something else?
We could just as easily say that if an unbeliever can see it, why can't a believer? How much more clear should it be to those who have seen the light of God's glory and holiness.One thing that has always bothered me about Garlock's presentation has been that he seems to put a lot of stock in the opinion of secular scientists as if they somehow are an authority on the matter.
But then secular scientists often say we evolved and deny a God at all so why do we trust them here?
Todd W. White said:1. Some people who disagree with the points Dr. Garlock presents react to them (and, perhaps, him), rather than listen to them with an open mind and heart. I'm not talking about anyone here, I'm just making an general observation based on around 35 years of trying to explain these concepts to people who have never heard them before. So, rather than listen, they often react, and tune out what good might be in the message.
Todd W. White said:2. Those who have heard them, and rejected them, are often very defensive, sometimes downright antagonistic, towards anyone who holds these as their personal convictions. This makes it difficult to communicate with them in a civil conversation about the topic.
Todd W. White said:3. Those who have reacted negatively to these concepts can also be prone to become judgmental and derisive of those who have embraced them, and vice-versa. This is not a salvific issue, but it is, I believe, still very important. Yet, there is no place, in my view, of nastiness by one side towards the other, no matter who is doing it.
Todd W. White said:4. Trying to present these concepts is never easy. This is especially true when the person with whom I am trying to share doesn't know anything about music. It is also true of those who don't know much about the Bible. It has been my experience over the past 40 years, as a church member, church musician, church sound operator, church sound system designer, installer, and trainer of church musicians in proper sound system use, as a church music minister, and now as a pastor, that most pastors don't know anything about music and most music people in churches don't know anything about the Bible. I know that is a broad generalization, but it is nonetheless my observation.
Todd W. White said:5. Lastly, it has been my observation that perhaps we've been attempting to present these concepts in the wrong way. A better way to say that might be that there could be a more effective way to present them that those who do not know about or understand them might be able to grasp more easily.
Todd W. White said:1. Will you approach this discussion with an open heart? Is your heart's desire to allow Christ to be in control of every part of your life?
2. Would you be willing to accept as valid any teaching that is confirmed by sound, Bible exegesis, even if it conflicts with your current beliefs and/or practice?
3. If you find it to be correct, would you be willing to change your mind - and your practice - regarding the subject and follow what God teaches you?
Pastor Larry said:Given these self-evident truths, should not we think more critically about the music we use?
I agree.rbell said:I think one extreme is to say, "Oh, it doesn't matter what you listen to." The other extreme is, "XYZ genres are evil; ABC genres are not."
Both extremes are problematic.
Pastor Larry said:I think God doesn't expect us to check our minds at the door. He rather expects us to use our minds and think very seriously about these issues.
Todd W. White said:4. Trying to present these concepts is never easy. This is especially true when the person with whom I am trying to share doesn't know anything about music. It is also true of those who don't know much about the Bible. It has been my experience over the past 40 years, as a church member, church musician, church sound operator, church sound system designer, installer, and trainer of church musicians in proper sound system use, as a church music minister, and now as a pastor, that most pastors don't know anything about music and most music people in churches don't know anything about the Bible. I know that is a broad generalization, but it is nonetheless my observation.
Todd W. White said:Lots of interesting comments in this thread.
While driving back in the storm last night from Dallas to Tulsa, several things came to my mind about this topic, and how to approach it. I would like to offer the following first, and will present the others later.
First, some observations:
1. Some people who disagree with the points Dr. Garlock presents react to them (and, perhaps, him), rather than listen to them with an open mind and heart. I'm not talking about anyone here, I'm just making an general observation based on around 35 years of trying to explain these concepts to people who have never heard them before. So, rather than listen, they often react, and tune out what good might be in the message.
2. Those who have heard them, and rejected them, are often very defensive, sometimes downright antagonistic, towards anyone who holds these as their personal convictions. This makes it difficult to communicate with them in a civil conversation about the topic.
3. Those who have reacted negatively to these concepts can also be prone to become judgmental and derisive of those who have embraced them, and vice-versa. This is not a salvific issue, but it is, I believe, still very important. Yet, there is no place, in my view, of nastiness by one side towards the other, no matter who is doing it.
4. Trying to present these concepts is never easy. This is especially true when the person with whom I am trying to share doesn't know anything about music. It is also true of those who don't know much about the Bible. It has been my experience over the past 40 years, as a church member, church musician, church sound operator, church sound system designer, installer, and trainer of church musicians in proper sound system use, as a church music minister, and now as a pastor, that most pastors don't know anything about music and most music people in churches don't know anything about the Bible. I know that is a broad generalization, but it is nonetheless my observation.
5. Lastly, it has been my observation that perhaps we've been attempting to present these concepts in the wrong way. A better way to say that might be that there could be a more effective way to present them that those who do not know about or understand them might be able to grasp more easily.
This is some of what came to mind last night driving home in the storm.
That said, I'd like to try to go "at it" from a different angle. I believe that it IS possible for Christians to discuss matters of any type without resorting to innuendo, slams, slaps, smart-aleck remarks, etc. I will certainly refrain from it, and would ask everyone who is interested in this topic to do the same.
With that, I pose three questions for all of us, including myself, to answer before I spend a lot of time on this -
1. Will you approach this discussion with an open heart? Is your heart's desire to allow Christ to be in control of every part of your life?
2. Would you be willing to accept as valid any teaching that is confirmed by sound, Bible exegesis, even if it conflicts with your current beliefs and/or practice?
3. If you find it to be correct, would you be willing to change your mind - and your practice - regarding the subject and follow what God teaches you?
I think we need to ask ourselves these questions privately (not looking for public answers, here - I have no interest in "setting someone up" for later ridicule or something like that). If folks aren't willing to take a fresh look at it with an open heart and mind - including myself - then we're wasting our time here.
What say YOU? Should we proceed with serious hearts, truly desiring to know the truth, or do we drop it and go on to something else?
annsni said:Do you have any wireless microphones from Audio Technica?
rbell said:Actually, I've misplaced 10-12 of AT's top of the line mic. Got any extra laying around?
(well, I tried...)
annsni said:Actually we have a bunch. Unfortunately, they're the Asia and Austrailia models so they're different radio bands or whatever it is. We needed mics BADLY last year but we couldn't use all of the ones Bob has upstairs because of the foreign stuff. SIGH. Oh well!!
rbell said:[hijack] Will they work if we play Australian music? I can play the digeridoo...[/hijack]
sorry...back to the festivities...
Can you show my just one verse that explicitly states that contemporary music or music with a contemporary beat is evil?
Todd W. White said:r
If we can agree, then I will be most happy to proceed and provide the evidence so many think doesn't exist to support Dr. Garlock's - and my - position.
C4K said:Please folks - this thread has the potential to volatility. The topic is very clear - is their Bible support for the harmony/melody/rhythm teaching?
If not, it does not mean that the concept is bad, just that we can't defend it as scripture.
This argument fails when you consider the unbeliever has a different measure of morality that the Bible has.We could just as easily say that if an unbeliever can see it, why can't a believer? How much more clear should it be to those who have seen the light of God's glory and holiness.