NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
sag38 said:
Lets try to avoid conjecture that will stir up emotions and see what Todd has for us.
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Music in Fundamental Churches
- Thread starter NaasPreacher (C4K)
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Lets try to avoid conjecture that will stir up emotions and see what Todd has for us.
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
More Thanks
Roger...Thank you for keeping this on-track. I am one of those who has struggled with this issue over the years so I am definitely appreciative of a sense of gravity about the subject. The one thing I will agree with Todd on initially is that the Bible is a book of "principles". I do believe that sometimes when dealing with "gray" areas we have to see if there are sound Biblical "principles" that may apply in lieu of any direct commands or clear statements of dogma on any given subject. How do you feel about this viewpoint in regards to the subject at hand? Just curious. I think it kind of goes toward the "worldly" vs "spiritual" arguments. I'll be curious what Bro. Todd brings to the table. I really do hope that there are some clearcut answers.
Greg Perry Sr.:thumbs:
Roger...Thank you for keeping this on-track. I am one of those who has struggled with this issue over the years so I am definitely appreciative of a sense of gravity about the subject. The one thing I will agree with Todd on initially is that the Bible is a book of "principles". I do believe that sometimes when dealing with "gray" areas we have to see if there are sound Biblical "principles" that may apply in lieu of any direct commands or clear statements of dogma on any given subject. How do you feel about this viewpoint in regards to the subject at hand? Just curious. I think it kind of goes toward the "worldly" vs "spiritual" arguments. I'll be curious what Bro. Todd brings to the table. I really do hope that there are some clearcut answers.
Greg Perry Sr.:thumbs:
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Gregory Perry Sr. said:
My 'problem' with the principles concept is that it becomes open to conjecture, bias, and prejudice.
I ask myself if my current position on the conservative side of music is based on:
1) Clear Bible teaching
2) Bible principles
3) Personal preference
4) Tradition based on what I have heard for decades
5) Some other standard
I am simply trying to come up with what we as Fundamentalists always try to find - a Biblical basis for my belief and practice. I can continue to repeat what I have heard, or come to a clear basis for my belief and practice.
thegospelgeek
New Member
I haven't seen this much talkin' with so little being said since the Presidential elections...... Oh how I miss those days 
I looked for those as well.
1) Clear Bible teaching
This is what I really wanted. Could not find it.
2) Bible principles
I did find principles but not on style. Rather regardless of style and even content, God does not listen to the worship of idolators.
3) Personal preference
I have seen a lot of this on both sides of the issue. I have seen some that practically oppose "conservative" music as much as the other side opposes rhythm dominated music.
4) Tradition based on what I have heard for decades
This unfortunately, as a result of point 3 is the cause of most of this controversy I believe.
5) Some other standard
Trusting secular sources comes under this category.
I used to believe strongly in the principle idea of the bible but I no longer do.
I believe now that the Bible is first and foremost a story of the unfolding work of the Trinity in redemption.
Even the law contained in the Bible is in a supportive role to bring us to the Gospel and our need of a Savior.
When you view scripture like this, it takes the bible from a law book of the principle model to a book of Good News of the Gospel model.
If the Bible does not say something is a sin, then it is not a sin, plain and simple.
Of course there are many creative ways to break God's law.
Each generation seems to come up with another twist on a way to break God's law.
To apply this to the topic at hand, does the Bible give us freedom in the areas where the Bible is silent?
I believe so.
Do we have Biblical authority to bind the conscience of other Christians based on our liberty?
I believe not.
So how does the issue of music apply to the unfolding plan of redemption?
Hi Folks,
Just a note to let you know that I am working on this - I'm attempting to address the issue from that "different angle" I was talking about earlier, something I've never done. So, it's taking longer than I expected.
I'll post it as soon as I have it ready. Thanks for your patience.
Oh - and with regard to the Bible being a book of principles discussion - what I was trying to do is make a contrast between what the Bible really is and those who look at it as a book of rules and regulations. I think that the Bible has so many layers of truth in it that we'll never get to the bottom of it's depth of practical, applicable truth (aka principles) in this life, maybe not even in Heaven.
The idea I was trying to convey was that, when it comes to some subjects/issues that the Bible doesn't speak to directly, we have to look at the principles found in it and see what ones apply, and allow the Holy Spirit to help us as we develop our convictions accordingly.
Just a note to let you know that I am working on this - I'm attempting to address the issue from that "different angle" I was talking about earlier, something I've never done. So, it's taking longer than I expected.
I'll post it as soon as I have it ready. Thanks for your patience.
Oh - and with regard to the Bible being a book of principles discussion - what I was trying to do is make a contrast between what the Bible really is and those who look at it as a book of rules and regulations. I think that the Bible has so many layers of truth in it that we'll never get to the bottom of it's depth of practical, applicable truth (aka principles) in this life, maybe not even in Heaven.
The idea I was trying to convey was that, when it comes to some subjects/issues that the Bible doesn't speak to directly, we have to look at the principles found in it and see what ones apply, and allow the Holy Spirit to help us as we develop our convictions accordingly.
When I was first saved, I was in a church that preached Garlock's line of reasoning, although I don't recall having ever heard of Garlock before. Over time, I've done some studying (the Baptist Board is a great place for having your views challenged, and forcing you to study and defend them, or realize that you might actually have an incorrect viewpoint).
When considering biblical principles regarding the use of rhythm, here's the line of logic I've come to: David, a man after God's own heart, put down the ordinance regarding the use of instruments in worship. In Ezra 3:10, we see that the priests were given trumpets, and the Levites were given cymbals. Other instruments identified in other books were the harp, the timbrel, etc. In the New Testament, we see references to these instruments in relation to how to conduct a worship service (1 Cor 14); but it doesn't say don't use them, and the subject in that chapter is actually the improper use of a spiritual gift, not the improper use of musical instruments.
Now, the "approved" musical instrument in most IFB churches is the piano; and one would be correct in saying that the piano is derived from the harp, a biblical instrument. Another derivative of the harp is the guitar, but it is mostly banned from IFB churches as well. Other instruments that are biblical--the cymbal and the timbrel (two forms: the simple hand drum itself, or the version that has metal cymbals attached and is known as a tambourine these days), both percussion instruments--that find their descendents to be the cymbal and drums, are no longer "approved." The trumpet, a "melodical" instrument, can be found for "special music" in some churches, but is not considered an "approved" instrument for the most part. I have seen a trombone used for special music, too; but I'm not sure we want to get to the point of trying to identify which instruments should be allowed, and which should be banned.
It is my opinion that drum sets should not be used in worship services; I say this from a background of 4 years as a secular music major, specializing in percussion instruments. 95% of drum set players don't realize that their role is to simply act as a metronome, and keep the melodic instruments together at the same rate of speed. When I advise people on the use of drums these days, especially regarding their use in a worship service, I advise them to keep it simple: a bass drum, to keep the straight beat; a snare drum to provide any additional rhythms that enhance the melody; one cymbal, possibly a second small one; and the use of brushes instead of sticks, to keep the drums from overpowering the rest of the instruments and/or vocals.
While I say this is my opinion, note that I derived that opinion from my study of what the Bible says on the use of instruments in a worship service, and how the worship service is to be conducted.
Okay, I contributed my 2 bits.
When considering biblical principles regarding the use of rhythm, here's the line of logic I've come to: David, a man after God's own heart, put down the ordinance regarding the use of instruments in worship. In Ezra 3:10, we see that the priests were given trumpets, and the Levites were given cymbals. Other instruments identified in other books were the harp, the timbrel, etc. In the New Testament, we see references to these instruments in relation to how to conduct a worship service (1 Cor 14); but it doesn't say don't use them, and the subject in that chapter is actually the improper use of a spiritual gift, not the improper use of musical instruments.
Now, the "approved" musical instrument in most IFB churches is the piano; and one would be correct in saying that the piano is derived from the harp, a biblical instrument. Another derivative of the harp is the guitar, but it is mostly banned from IFB churches as well. Other instruments that are biblical--the cymbal and the timbrel (two forms: the simple hand drum itself, or the version that has metal cymbals attached and is known as a tambourine these days), both percussion instruments--that find their descendents to be the cymbal and drums, are no longer "approved." The trumpet, a "melodical" instrument, can be found for "special music" in some churches, but is not considered an "approved" instrument for the most part. I have seen a trombone used for special music, too; but I'm not sure we want to get to the point of trying to identify which instruments should be allowed, and which should be banned.
It is my opinion that drum sets should not be used in worship services; I say this from a background of 4 years as a secular music major, specializing in percussion instruments. 95% of drum set players don't realize that their role is to simply act as a metronome, and keep the melodic instruments together at the same rate of speed. When I advise people on the use of drums these days, especially regarding their use in a worship service, I advise them to keep it simple: a bass drum, to keep the straight beat; a snare drum to provide any additional rhythms that enhance the melody; one cymbal, possibly a second small one; and the use of brushes instead of sticks, to keep the drums from overpowering the rest of the instruments and/or vocals.
While I say this is my opinion, note that I derived that opinion from my study of what the Bible says on the use of instruments in a worship service, and how the worship service is to be conducted.
Okay, I contributed my 2 bits.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I know little about music and really cannot comment on the different forms. All I can say is that the music played in the Church I attend has the women swishing their behinds. I am assuming that is rhythm based music.
Well, that depends. "Rhythm-based" by most of these standards means drums are involved.OldRegular said:
It completely ignores that "melodic instruments," such as the piano, can be used in a purely rhythmic way.
Does your church use drums? Or is that the music is simply rhythmic?
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
Hummmmm
Yes...Pastor White's silence is deafening. I live in"Garlock/Musical Ministries/Ron Hamilton Land" here in the Greenville SC/BJU area. There has,over the years been much division over these issues among the Fundamental,Bible-believing churches and even the SBC churches in our area and beyond. Division is not always a bad thing (even though it is sad)if it is over necessarily Biblical issues. I'm always interested in the truly Biblical side of any issue.
Greg Perry Sr.
Pickens,SC
Yes...Pastor White's silence is deafening. I live in"Garlock/Musical Ministries/Ron Hamilton Land" here in the Greenville SC/BJU area. There has,over the years been much division over these issues among the Fundamental,Bible-believing churches and even the SBC churches in our area and beyond. Division is not always a bad thing (even though it is sad)if it is over necessarily Biblical issues. I'm always interested in the truly Biblical side of any issue.
Greg Perry Sr.
Pickens,SC
I guess he thought he couldn't convert us "heathens" so he decided to give up.Dale-c said:
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
For What It's Worth
Regardless of pastor White's opinion (or anyone else's including MINE) I still prefer traditional old-fashioned hymn music to most of this new contemporary stuff. The message of much of it is so very shallow if not downright undoctrinally sound. I know there are exceptions to this not only in the contemporary stuff but ALSO in the old traditional stuff. Frankly, I think everything needs to be evaluated within the confines of what is and is NOT scriptural in terms of what it says and teaches. Good music will go a long way towards setting the tone and depth of a true worship experience. Bad music(and there IS a such thing!)will produce the exact opposite effect. Ask ANYBODY that is familiar with the use of background music in the RETAIL world. I came out of a classic rock and country rock background musically speaking and I personally find any so-called "christian" music masquerading behind those kinds of musical styles offensive. If it looks like the world,smells like the world,sounds like the world,and acts like the world...well...it must be worldly. That is my opinion...ya'll can take it or leave it.....but as for me and my house.....well...you know.
Greg Perry Sr. :type:
Regardless of pastor White's opinion (or anyone else's including MINE) I still prefer traditional old-fashioned hymn music to most of this new contemporary stuff. The message of much of it is so very shallow if not downright undoctrinally sound. I know there are exceptions to this not only in the contemporary stuff but ALSO in the old traditional stuff. Frankly, I think everything needs to be evaluated within the confines of what is and is NOT scriptural in terms of what it says and teaches. Good music will go a long way towards setting the tone and depth of a true worship experience. Bad music(and there IS a such thing!)will produce the exact opposite effect. Ask ANYBODY that is familiar with the use of background music in the RETAIL world. I came out of a classic rock and country rock background musically speaking and I personally find any so-called "christian" music masquerading behind those kinds of musical styles offensive. If it looks like the world,smells like the world,sounds like the world,and acts like the world...well...it must be worldly. That is my opinion...ya'll can take it or leave it.....but as for me and my house.....well...you know.
Greg Perry Sr. :type:
thegospelgeek
New Member
Well...
Just to fill the time till Mr. White returns, I pray nothing has happened to him or his family, help me clarify some things on the idea of the OP.
Are we talking about music alone? Not lyrics.
What defines the music as Rhythm-based, harmony-based , melody-based? Can you either give me examples of each or post a link to some on-line?
Is it the instuments used or the notes played?
Does music have the same effect on everyone that hears it?
Just to fill the time till Mr. White returns, I pray nothing has happened to him or his family, help me clarify some things on the idea of the OP.
Are we talking about music alone? Not lyrics.
What defines the music as Rhythm-based, harmony-based , melody-based? Can you either give me examples of each or post a link to some on-line?
Is it the instuments used or the notes played?
Does music have the same effect on everyone that hears it?
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Lets not assume that Todd had run off. It was the weekend and things can get busy,
Nope - still here, but had the weekend to deal with. Saturday's and Sunday's are busy days for us. Plus, today was my handicapped brother's birthday, so that took up all of Monday. Tomorrow, it's meetings with the State regarding his care.
I'm working on a very simple, easy-to-understand approach that I think will be very helpful - I've got it in my head, now I need the time to write it out.
I'll try to get it put in written form Wednesday morning.
Not trying to avoid the issue - just busy.
Hope ya'll understand...
I'm working on a very simple, easy-to-understand approach that I think will be very helpful - I've got it in my head, now I need the time to write it out.
I'll try to get it put in written form Wednesday morning.
Not trying to avoid the issue - just busy.
Hope ya'll understand...
Steven2006
New Member
I much prefer more traditional music in church, but it has nothing to do with the beat of the music. Modern praise style IMO is just poor quality music with sub par lyrics, I just don't care for it at all.
But I have never seen or heard a solid argument for the style of music being wrong or sinful. Matter of fact I enjoy a wide variety of secular music as long as the lyrics are not awful for us to listen to.
But I have never seen or heard a solid argument for the style of music being wrong or sinful. Matter of fact I enjoy a wide variety of secular music as long as the lyrics are not awful for us to listen to.
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