Music in Fundamental Churches

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Nope - still here, but had the weekend to deal with. Saturday's and Sunday's are busy days for us. Plus, today was my handicapped brother's birthday, so that took up all of Monday. Tomorrow, it's meetings with the State regarding his care.

I'm working on a very simple, easy-to-understand approach that I think will be very helpful - I've got it in my head, now I need the time to write it out.

I'll try to get it put in written form Wednesday morning.

Not trying to avoid the issue - just busy.

Hope ya'll understand...

No problem Todd. Remember that all we are looking for is Bible support for this particular claim. This is not about music style in general, but this specifically.

Melody-based music feeds the spiritual side of our being most, our mind less, and our flesh even less.

Harmony-based music feeds the mind most, the spiritual, not so much, but the flesh more than melody-based music does.

Rhythm-based music feeds the flesh first and foremost, the mind to a small degree, and the spiritual side of our makeup starves and grows weak.

 

[Dale-c]

I much prefer more traditional music in church, but it has nothing to do with the beat of the music. Modern praise style IMO is just poor quality music with sub par lyrics, I just don't care for it at all.

But I have never seen or heard a solid argument for the style of music being wrong or sinful. Matter of fact I enjoy a wide variety of secular music as long as the lyrics are not awful for us to listen to.

This is my view exactly.
Of course tradition for me goes back more that 100 years though
For a lot of churches it seems Fanny Crosby is "old music"
I choose some music for church that makes that look new. But I also choose stuff written as late as the 1970s and perhaps newer.

I am not limited to one point in time.

I might add that those churches that sing only contemporary music, to the exclusion of older hymns are just as much slaves to tradition as anyone else.

One extreme is to be stuck in the 1950s.
The other is to be stuck in the 1990s

I think the proper view it to sing music from all ages.

 

[Dale-c]

Melody-based music feeds the spiritual side of our being most, our mind less, and our flesh even less.

Harmony-based music feeds the mind most, the spiritual, not so much, but the flesh more than melody-based music does.

Rhythm-based music feeds the flesh first and foremost, the mind to a small degree, and the spiritual side of our makeup starves and grows weak

I think this is flawed at best. I see no way to prove this or solid evidence for it.

I was taught this in bible college but it was simply asserted, it was never actually demonstrated.

 

[menageriekeeper]

If it looks like the world,smells like the world,sounds like the world,and acts like the world...well...it must be worldly. That is my opinion...ya'll can take it or leave it.....but as for me and my house.....well...you know.

Excuse me for pointing this out, but, considering your background I can see how some music styles would be inadvisible for you because they would clearly be distracting for you in your walk with the Lord. So for you they would be worldly.

But I don't find those music styles to be distracting from my walk with the Lord. Annoying perhaps, but that is simply because I don't prefer those particular types of music.

The point is, worldly is often in the eye of the beholder.

My parents thought that playing cards were "worldly". Didn't allow them in the house because they were associated with gambling. I personally don't see the point. Are we to avoid buffet style resturants because they are the type of resturant favored in the casinos? To me both prohibitions are nonsense. To someone with a gambling problem however....

I think you can see what I am saying. One can only define "worldly" within the context of their own lives. I don't believe that, in the absence of clear teaching of scripture, that any can define "worldly" for another.

Perhaps though, this is a subject for another thread?

 

[annsni]

I found a website that had, what I THINK is a pretty good article dealing with this, although I have to admit it's 70 something pages so I didn't go through the whole thing. I bookmarked it years ago and it's since been taken down but if you go to www.archive.org and input this URL http://members.aol.com/etb700/ccm.html then get the last entry, you can read the entire article. It's long but addresses a lot of the issues including separation and "devil music".

 

[Todd W. White]

I've seen that position expressed before - the problem with it, in my view, is that the author is reacting to people who are reacting to rock music/CCM/etc., but the people whom he is reacting to have added to the argument their subjective opinions, not legitimate biblical, or, for that matter, legitimate musical evidence, to support their position.

An quick example of this is that he lumps all folks who hold to the position that the type of music being discussed isn't appropriate for Christians as advocating only certain types of music as acceptable.

Notice what he says -

So with all of this, the music that seems to win God's approval by default, is traditional church hymns, new ones written in the fashion of the old, and classical. Not only are contemporary rhythms bad to these people, but they even rule out "cute or clever ideas", which supposedly draw attention to the artists, and claim that music is just a "utilitarian tool".

IOW, he's run into some people who have narrowed their personal perception of what God allows as acceptable in their lives to a specific type/style of music, and he assumes that everyone who doesn't believe rhythm-based music is appropriate for the Spirit-filled Christian is on board with their position. While this may be the case for many, especially those who are not musically trained or know little of what the Bible says about music, it's unfair to paint all of those on that side of the fence with such a broad brush. Nevertheless, it's a common association made by those who try very hard to defend CCM, et al, as being appropriate for Christians to listen to.

Another idea that some "anti's" follow is that ANY instrument that can produce a rhythmic effect is evil in and of itself. So, they view drums, for example, as being "evil", never realizing that there are many instruments besides drums that are designed to produce rhythm. While drums are a percussive-type of rhythmic instrument, the tuba, for example, is, for want of a better term, a harmonic-type rhythmic instrument. Both serve to keep the movement of a piece of music going, but, while the many percussion instruments do it non-harmonically, some, like the timpani, the xylophone, the piano, etc., do it harmonically, as does the tuba, but that doesn't make them wrong to use, any more than using drums does. It's the manner in which they are used that can be the problem, not the instrument itself that is bad.

Incidentally, rhythm is an essential part of music - without it, we'd just have one, never-ending whole note! :tongue3: It's not rhythm that is inappropriate for Christians - it's the manner in which it used that can get you into trouble. Much of the confusion about this topic is, in my opinion, due to a lack of understanding about this point and the subsequent actions/reactions by folks on both sides of the issue towards each other and their associated behavior.

A lot of the confusion over all of this is due, as I said before in a tongue-in-cheek manner that some didn't catch as an attempt to be funny, to the fact that many pastors don't know anything about music (hence their ban on the "evil" instruments), and a lot music people in churches don't know much about the Bible teachings on music (hence some of them can't "see" why ALL music may not be appropriate for Christians to have in their lives). The result is that a lot of person preferences and subjective opinion get thrown into the mix, and that causes confusion, even rebellion by those who do not understand the real issues at work.

My explanation, which I am working on today but may not finish (have to go back to my handicapped brother's and help him for a bit this morning, then get the rest of everything ready for tonight's service) until tomorrow, doesn't look at any particular style as being better or worse. Rather, I'm working on attempting to approach it from a completely different angle that I've never seen or read anybody doing before. While, by definition, some of the things I will present will be familiar, I am praying that they will be received in the manner in which they are presented, rather than reacted to negatively because they sound in some places like stuff folks have heard before. It will not be possible to deal with this subject without some overlap - I hope folks who disagree with me now will be able to get past that.

Gotta run - have to be at my brother's in 30 minutes.

Please forgive the delay - I'll try to get this thing together as quick as I can. It's just putting something down in a vastly different format isn't easy, and I want to be sure I'm thorough and as accurate as I can be before I post it.

Blessings...

 

[thegospelgeek]

Todd,
Looking forward to your position, although I must admitt that I find it strange you come on here saying you have a biblical position but have such a great delay in posting. I will try to continue waiting.

I hope folks who disagree with me now will be able to get past that.

I don't see how we can disagree, as of yet you have not posted a position on anything.

 

[Todd W. White]

gospelgeek wrote:

Looking forward to your position, although I must admitt that I find it strange you come on here saying you have a biblical position but have such a great delay in posting. I will try to continue waiting.

Well, I can take the Bible right now and explain the position, but most here have heard that explanation and many have rejected it to one degree or another. What I am working on is an entirely new look at the same subject from a different angle.

It's not that I don't have the Scriptures to back me up - it's just that I've never used these passages I am working with to approach from the subject. Therefore, there's nothing I can cut & paste or rattle off the top of my head without having to really think about it...

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Per the OP I am only looking for Bible evidence for this one concept:

Melody-based music feeds the spiritual side of our being most, our mind less, and our flesh even less.

Harmony-based music feeds the mind most, the spiritual, not so much, but the flesh more than melody-based music does.

Rhythm-based music feeds the flesh first and foremost, the mind to a small degree, and the spiritual side of our makeup starves and grows weak

I am not looking for a full theology of church music. Most of us have studied and prayed our ways through that.

I just don't see any Bible support for the philosophy in quotes, especially the bolded bit.

 

[rbell]

Several posts from Mr. White...and still no Scriptural background for his assertions...

Nice guy, though. I'm sure he's dedicated in his ministry.

 

[sag38]

While I don't doubt the intentions it very hard to present a Biblical argument that isn't in the Bible. But, I will try to withold judgment until I've read what Todd has to say. We are waiting.

 

[EdSutton]

Several posts from Mr. White...and still no Scriptural background for his assertions...

Nice guy, though. I'm sure he's dedicated in his ministry.

No!!!

Say it ain't SO!!!

Please, Please put back your previous picture of "SOTP"! raying:

That one, along with the "BMUP" of tinytim, and the 'ranting preacher' of LeBuick was one of the best on the Baptist Board over my entire three years, here.

Arrrggghh!! Et tu, tinytim?

Will the madness never cease?? :tear:

LeBuick, I implore you to keep the faith, my brother, for you seem to be the only one left.

[Edited to add]For a moment I forgot about the 'dancing chicken' that PJ used to have up, and the 'jackaroo' of one now banned, which matched these.

No particular comment or opinion on your post, BTW.

Ed

 

[Jkdbuck76]

I'm interested in this one. New view. New angle.

In the meantime, what do you guys think of some of the oldest Christian music....Byzantine Chant.

 

[bound]

I'm interested in this one. New view. New angle.

In the meantime, what do you guys think of some of the oldest Christian music....Byzantine Chant.

Seriously, do you really think that the early ecclesia (People of God) made up of tax-collectors, Whores, Shepherds, Fishermen, and other repentant common folk sung in such a fashion as the Emperors' Professional Cantors in those Basilicas?

No, my friend, that is not the Oldest Christian music... the Oldest Christian music was the cries of the Christian Martyrs as these well-to-do fellows watched them get eaten by lions.

 

[Jkdbuck76]

Oh. Forgive me.

I should have said "..the oldest Christian music we can still find and listen to today."

Wait. Who cares? We're all still waiting on a Biblical analysis of rythm-based music.

I so silly!

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

So, do we have Bible evidence or principles to support the idea that rhythm based music causes the spiritual side of our makeup to starve and grow weak?

 

[Todd W. White]

Working on it...

 

[sag38]

We're not asking for a theological treatise but a simple and straightforward Biblical defense of your position.

 

[Todd W. White]

I understand that - I'm working on it, and that's the approach I'm trying to take.

Be patient - I have more things going on in my life than just this one issue.

 

[Don]

Folks, please give him time. I'm curious to see what he has.

However, we can't wait forever.