Musical Instruments in Christ's church [2]

[MorganT]

First lets put somethings in context shall we,

Eph 5:15-21 See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, (16) redeeming the time, because the days are evil. (17) Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (18) And do not be drunk with wine, in which is excess, but be filled with the Spirit, (19) speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; (20) always giving thanks for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, (21) submitting yourselves to one another in the fear of God.


This is a common Church of Chirst tactic, to pull verses out of context to fit there views. However even then psalms are set to music therefore your point is kinda mute. The same holds true with your Col. 3:16 verse. These areas are telling us how to live as Christians.

Lets break down Eph. 5:19 shall we just for fun.

Eph 5:19 SpeakingG2980
λαλέω
laleō
lal-eh'-o
A prolonged form of an otherwise obsolete verb; to talk, that is, utter words: - preach, say, speak (after), talk, tell, utter.

to yourselvesG1438
G1438
ἑαυτοῦ
heautou
heh-ow-too'
(Including all the other cases); from a reflexive pronoun otherwise obsolete and the genitive (dative or accusative) of G846; him (her, it, them, also [in conjunction with the personal pronoun of the other persons] my, thy, our, your) -self (-selves), etc.: - alone, her (own, -self), (he) himself, his (own), itself, one (to) another, our (thine) own (-selves), + that she had, their (own, own selves), (of) them (-selves), they, thyself, you, your (own, own conceits, own selves, -selves).

Pay attention to this one MUSIC
in psalmsG5568
G5568
ψαλμός
psalmos
psal-mos'
From G5567; a set piece of music, that is, a sacred ode (accompanied with the voice, harp or other instrument; a “psalm”); collectively the book of the Psalms: - psalm. Compare G5603.

andG2532
G2532
καί
kai
kahee
Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words: - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yea, yet.

I would like to point out to compare to G5567 which will show up down farther
hymnsG5215
G5215
ὕμνος
humnos
hoom'-nos
Apparently from a simpler (obsolete) form of ὕδέω hudeō (to celebrate; probably akin to G103; compare G5567); a “hymn” or religious ode (one of the Psalms): - hymn.

andG2532Already posted this above

spiritualG4152
G4152
πνευματικός
pneumatikos
phyoo-mat-ik-os'
From G4151; non-carnal, that is, (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious: - spiritual. Compare G5591.

I would like to note that it refers you back to G5568 Oh wait there goes that mucical instrument again
songs,G5603
G5603
ᾠδή
ōdē
o-day'
From G103; a chant or “ode” (the general term for any words sung; while G5215 denotes especially a religious metrical composition, and G5568 still more specifically a Hebrew cantillation: - song.

True Enough but wait there is more
singingG103
G103
ᾄδω
adō
ad'-o
A primary verb; to sing: - sing.

Again refer to above
andG2532

So now the verse says to SING and to MAKE MELODY wait isnt this a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT, WELL YES IT IS
making melodyG5567
G5567
ψάλλω
psallō
psal'-lo
Probably strengthened from ψάω psaō (to rub or touch the surface; compare G5597); to twitch or twang, that is, to play on a stringed instrument (celebrate the divine worship with music and accompanying odes): - make melody, sing (psalms).

NOW READ THIS CAREFULLY do you see INSTRUMENTALITY in there
inG1722
G1722
ἐν
en
en
A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.


yourG5216
G5216
ὑμῶν
humōn
hoo-mone'
Genitive case of G5210; of (from or concerning) you: - ye, you, your (own, -selves).

heartG2588
G2588
καρδία
kardia
kar-dee'-ah
Prolonged from a primary κάρ kar (Latin cor, “heart”); the heart, that is, (figuratively) the thoughts or feelings (mind); also (by analogy) the middle: - (+ broken-) heart (-ed).

to theG3588
G3588
ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho hē to
ho, hay, to
The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

Lord;G2962
G2962
κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.


You are really going to have to do better than that if you want to convince us that we can only SING, have you got anything else, in context of course.

Wow...you really have an extreme take on what I said.


Now looking at the whole verse...
Ephesians 5:19 "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;"

And then there is....
Colossians 3:16 "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

Both of these verses refer to "your heart" but it also says to "teach and admonish one another" and then it tells us how to do that "in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs" so these verses tell us to sing aloud AND in our hearts.

Singing does two primary things. 1) Encourages/teaches/admonishes and 2) praises God.
Singing aloud does 1) and then plus singing and making melody in your heart accomplishes 2).

Again, look at more examples to support this...
Acts 16:25 "And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them."

Hebrews 13:15 "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name."

 

[ccrobinson]

Long time reader of the threads, first time poster.

God never directly banned them for the New Testament church - but he never requested them nor did he allow them.

Argumentum ex silentio, which is Latin for argument from silence.

Argument from silence - generally a conclusion based on silence or lack of contrary evidence.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_silence#cite_note-0 Argumentum ex silentio is classified as a logical fallacy, similar to other fallacies such as straw man, argument from ignorance, etc.

Your arguments against musical instruments will continue to be weak and ineffectual as long as you continue using this logical fallacy. You may have arguments against musical instruments in the church, but the argument from silence fallacy isn't one of them.

 

[DHK]

Wow...you really have an extreme take on what I said.

No, I quoted what you said. Now you are putting what you said in context. Context is what you often ignore. Everything has context: the verse, the passage, the chapter, the book, the testament (Old or New), and the entire Bible itself. You ignore much of the context of the Bible. I only responded to the context of the verse that you quoted.
You also maintain the heart is the instrument. If that be true, no matter what the rest of the Bible says, your music (whether instrumental or vocal) must be in silence. You must retract your statement about the heart being the instrument. If that is true, then your music must be in silence, and you contradict the Word which you have quoted.

Now looking at the whole verse...
Ephesians 5:19 "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;"

What does this verse really mean? Have you ever studied it in depth? Let's look at someone who has. I will quote to you Jamieson, Faucett and Brown:

19. (Col 3:16).
to yourselves--"to one another." Hence soon arose the antiphonal or responsive chanting of
which PLINY writes to Trajan: "They are wont on a fixed day to meet before daylight [to avoid
persecution] and to recite a hymn among themselves by turns, to Christ, as if being God." The Spirit
gives true eloquence; wine, a spurious eloquence.

psalms--generally accompanied by an instrument.

hymns--in direct praise to God (compare Ac 16:25; 1Co 14:26; Jas 5:13).

songs--the general term for lyric pieces; "spiritual" is added to mark their being here restricted to
sacred subjects, though not merely to direct praises of God, but also containing exhortations,
prophecies, &c. Contrast the drunken "songs," Am 8:10.

making melody--Greek, "playing and singing with an instrument."

in your heart--not merely with the tongue; but the serious feeling of the heart accompanying the
singing of the lips (compare 1Co 14:15; Ps 47:7). The contrast is between the heathen and the
Christian practice, "Let your songs be not the drinking songs of heathen feasts, but psalms and
hymns; and their accompaniment, not the music of the lyre, but the melody of the heart" [CONYBEARE
and HOWSON].
to the Lord--See PLINY'S letter quoted above: "To Christ as God."

Instruments were definitely included in the early church, according to Jamieson, Faucett and Brown.

And then there is....
Colossians 3:16 "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

Both of these verses refer to "your heart" but it also says to "teach and admonish one another" and then it tells us how to do that "in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs" so these verses tell us to sing aloud AND in our hearts.

The object of "in your hearts" is "grace." The phrase is "singing with grace..." They do not refer to "in your heart" as you suppose. Sing with grace is more like the command. "In your hearts" is a prepositional phrase describing how. We are to sing with grace.

Singing does two primary things. 1) Encourages/teaches/admonishes and 2) praises God.
Singing aloud does 1) and then plus singing and making melody in your heart accomplishes 2).

Again, look at more examples to support this...
Acts 16:25 "And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them."

And so they did. Maybe they clanged their shackles together to keep a beat.
What is your point?

Hebrews 13:15 "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name."

This verse does not exclude instruments.

 

[Don]

Sorry, I wasn't ignoring you, I was to distracted by Darron Steele's post I forgot to answer yours.

No problem; I completely understand.

Yes, you say it yourself - they "enhance the worship service". So God would be more "pleased" with this "enhanced worship service"?

I see we're just not going to find common ground on whether musical instruments are "required" vs. "allowed" (you made a distinction in a response to another person, where you basically state that God didn't disallow instruments, but that didn't mean He allowed it; most people would say, if it isn't disallowed, then it's hard to say He didn't allow it.)

Hebrews 2:12
"I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise."
Probably the psalms? Maybe other songs they have?
Of course I can see you now....
"Ahah! The Psalms were played with musical instruments!"

Notice...
"...I will sing your praise"

Not...
"I will play and sing your praise"

The word 'sing' here is hymneō which its definition is
- to sing the praise of, sing hymns to
- to sing a hymn, to sing
- singing of paschal hymns these were Psalms 113 - 118 and 136, which the Jews called the "great Hallel"

It all means singing and simply that.

To properly answer this, one must look at the fact that they were singing the Hallel, and therefore one must look at how the Psalms were "performed." If the Psalms were accompanied by musical instruments (which they usually were), and you are saying that the musical instruments are not allowed, then the burden of proof is upon you to show where in scripture the change came about.

You cannot simply say, "the NT says 'sing,'" and consider that the basis of your argument. You yourself have previously pointed out that we must use context and definitions and meanings; those include how things were actually done.

If you say there was a change in how the Psalms were sung--which is what you are saying--then the burden of proof is upon you to show the scriptural edict that made that change.

Otherwise, you are espousing an unscriptural point of view (that is, that musical instruments are disallowed, prohibited, etc.).

It's that simple.

 

[Don]

Hum. Is this conversation over?

 

[rbell]

DOTF hasn't been able to answer.

He's had praise band practice.

 

[annsni]

DOTF hasn't been able to answer.

He's had praise band practice.

Oh my goodness - this made me laugh.

 

[defenderofthefaith]

DOTF hasn't been able to answer.

He's had praise band practice.

Actually, I had a lovely new thread opened entirely to attack the church of Christ; and as my name is Defender of the Faith, I was busy debating there.

I'll get back to this thread ASAP - remember, there are about 10 of you guys and 1 of me.

 

[rbell]

I'll get back to this thread ASAP - remember, there are about 10 of you guys and 1 of me.

Two, if you count the pitch pipe.

 

[Darron Steele]

Actually, I had a lovely new thread opened entirely to attack the church of Christ....

To all concerned, this is an inaccurate statement.

Here is the thread, which someone else started:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=56197
That thread does criticize a shrinking portion of the Churches of Christ.

 

[Darron Steele]

...

God told us to sing, he doesn't have to tell us everything not to do.
For example...
Someone tells you to get him a coke. Do you get him a coke and pepsi, mountain dew, sprite, mello yellow, dr. pepper, water, milk, tea, and a gatorade just because he never told you "Get me a coke but don't get me a pepsi, mountain dew, sprite...ect..ect"
No, that wouls be idiotic - you would just get a coke.

Well, if I got him a "pepsi, mountain dew, sprite, mello yellow, dr. pepper, water, milk, tea, and a gatorade" instead of a coke, you would have a point.

If he had expressed that he had a liking for one of those other things, I would bring him that too. I would still have brought him a coke. I guess I would have been "idiotic" for the extra courtesy -- I say as I roll my eyes.

People with any literacy in English know that a person is "singing" regardless of whether or not s/he is simultaneously playing a musical instrument.

 

[Don]

If he had expressed that he had a liking for one of those other things, I would bring him that too. I would still have brought him a coke.

So you think that if the Psalms that were still being sung in the New Testament (I should add, being instructed/ordered to be sung), were originally accompanied by musical instruments (I should add, instructed/ordered to be accompanied) ... well, are you trying to say that in all probability, they were still being accompanied by musical instruments in the New Testament?

Because I don't see an argument from silence on the instrument issue. I see something that was clearly outlined in the Old Testament, and still being practiced in the New Testament, and being ordered to be continued.

 

[defenderofthefaith]

So you think that if the Psalms that were still being sung in the New Testament (I should add, being instructed/ordered to be sung), were originally accompanied by musical instruments (I should add, instructed/ordered to be accompanied) ... well, are you trying to say that in all probability, they were still being accompanied by musical instruments in the New Testament?

Because I don't see an argument from silence on the instrument issue. I see something that was clearly outlined in the Old Testament, and still being practiced in the New Testament, and being ordered to be continued.

The argument that the New Testament christians used musical instruments is foolish and has been discounted numerous times.

Gerhard Gietmann wrote in The Catholic Encyclopedia
"Although Josephus tells of the wonderful effects produced in the Temple by the use of instruments, the first Christians were of too spiritual a fibre to substitute lifeless instruments for or to use them to accompany the human voice. Clement of Alexandria severely condemns the use of instruments even at Christian banquets "

Noted Baptist historian David Benedict (1779–1884) wrote Fifty Years Among the Baptists In which he said:
“In my earliest intercourse among this people congregational singing generally prevailed among them” (p. 281)
Later he continued:
"The changes which have been experienced in the feelings of a large portion of our people has often surprised me. Staunch old Baptists in former times would as soon have tolerated the Pope of Rome in their pulpits as an organ in their galleries, and yet the instrument has gradually found its way among them, and the successors in church management, with nothing like the jars and difficulties which arose of old concerning the bass viol and smaller instruments of music."

In the Treasury of David, Charles Spurgeon (prominant Baptist preacher; the "Billy Graham of the 19th century") commented on the phrase, “Praise the Lord with harp” (Psalm 33:2) by saying:
"Men need all the help they can get to stir them up to praise. This is the lesson to be gathered from the use of musical instruments under the old dispensation. Israel was at school, and used childish things to help her to learn; but in these days, when Jesus gives us spiritual manhood, we can make melody without strings and pipes. We who do not believe these things to be expedient in worship, lest they should mar its simplicity . . ."

On the phrase, “sing unto him,” he continues:
“This is the sweetest and best of music. No instrument like the human voice.”


In his notes on Psalm 42, Spurgeon commented:
"David appears to have had a peculiarly tender remembrance of the singing of the pilgrims, and assuredly it is the most delightful part of worship and that which comes nearest to the adoration of heaven. What a degradation to supplant the intelligent song of the whole congregation by the theatrical prettiness of a quartet, the refined niceties of a choir, or the blowing off of wind from inanimate bellows and pipes! We might as well pray by machinery as praise by it."

The first use of instruments in worship did not occur until more than a thousand years after the church was established. Secular sources date its use in the 600s a.d. For instance,

American Encyclopedia, Vol. 7, page 688: “The Pope Vitalian is regarded to have first introduced organs into some of the churches of Western Europe about 670; but the earliest trustworthy account is that of one sent as a present by the Greek emperor Constantine Copronymus to Pepin, King of Franks in 755.”

Chambers Encyclopedia, Vol. 7, page 112, says: “The organ is said to have been introduced into church music by Pope Vitalian in 666 a.d.”


John Spencer Curwen, member of the Royal Academy of Music and President of a college in London in 1880, stated:

"Men still living can remember the time when organs were very seldom found out of the Church of England. The Methodists, Independents, and Baptists rarely had them, and by the Presbyterians they were stoutly opposed."

In 1880 there were men still living who could remember the time when instruments of music were rarely used! However, by the middle of the nineteenth century, the use of the instrument in worship gradually made it into most denominational churches.

 

[Amy.G]

defender, I would like to ask you why God' forbids (according to you) instruments in the NT church?

Everything God does, has a specific purpose.

What is His purpose for this prohibition?

 

[Don]

The argument that the New Testament christians used musical instruments is foolish and has been discounted numerous times.

Nah, I think it's still in debate.

For example:

In the Treasury of David, Charles Spurgeon (prominant Baptist preacher; the "Billy Graham of the 19th century") commented on the phrase, “Praise the Lord with harp” (Psalm 33:2) by saying:
"Men need all the help they can get to stir them up to praise. This is the lesson to be gathered from the use of musical instruments under the old dispensation. Israel was at school, and used childish things to help her to learn; but in these days, when Jesus gives us spiritual manhood, we can make melody without strings and pipes. We who do not believe these things to be expedient in worship, lest they should mar its simplicity . . ."

On the phrase, “sing unto him,” he continues:
“This is the sweetest and best of music. No instrument like the human voice.”


In his notes on Psalm 42, Spurgeon commented:
"David appears to have had a peculiarly tender remembrance of the singing of the pilgrims, and assuredly it is the most delightful part of worship and that which comes nearest to the adoration of heaven. What a degradation to supplant the intelligent song of the whole congregation by the theatrical prettiness of a quartet, the refined niceties of a choir, or the blowing off of wind from inanimate bellows and pipes! We might as well pray by machinery as praise by it."

First, you're going to have to point me to which verse in Psalm 42 Spurgeon was talking about; I've scanned through the Treasury of David for Psalm 42, and couldn't find this reference.

Second, in the very same volume (Treasury of David), speaking of Psalm 43:4 --

Yea, upon the harp will I praise thee.
His best music for his best love. When God fills us with joy we ought ever to pour it out at his feet in praise, and all the skill and talent we have should be laid under contribution to increase the divine revenue of glory.

Spurgeon later says about Psalm 57:8 something similar to what you quoted about Psalm 42; but doesn't give a good account of why, when, or how the scriptural use of instruments in worship changed.

More later. Gotta go get something to eat.

 

[DHK]

D of F,
You have no answer to my post here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1345032&postcount=43

I have described to you the what the words mean in Eph.5:19, and you have no answer. It is evident that these words in and of themselves meant to sing with the playing of instruments. You have no answer. I take it that you don't answer this post because it cannot be answered by those of your persuasion.

The same would be true of this post by Morgan T
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1345022&postcount=41

 

[rbell]

I find it funny that DOTF makes the statement:

The argument that the New Testament christians used musical instruments is foolish and has been discounted numerous times.

Now...keep in mind: he talks often of basing everything on the New Testament.

So, then, what does he use to prove his point?

Non-New Testament sources.

Ironic, isn't it?

 

[Don]

It's interesting, anyway.

I found multiple references that Josephus (circa 100 A.D.) recorded the use of musical instruments. DOTF references Geitman's remarks on Josephus; but those overlook that Josephus was also a priest himself, and gives no indication that they were not doing the same practices that he was recording in his books.

I found it interesting in my research that there are a LOT of webpages that support the teaching of "no musical instruments"; and that most of them are pro-Church of Christ. Many were from Catholic supporters of the teaching.

Yes, there are many historians that "agree" that the early church didn't use instruments; yet look at the references DOTF provided; how many of those referenced the use of instruments in the 1800s? As such, one must realize that those particular references were relating to the use of instruments in their own time, and not particularly the use of them in the early church.

If one researches more, they'll find that it was around the same time that infant baptism was introduced (~300 A.D.) that an proclamation was made throughout the Catholic church prohibiting the use of musical instruments.

Were musical instruments in the early church being used in such a way as to be considered "worldly"? Of that, I have no doubt; just as they are today. However, let's be clear: I don't mean "all instruments" or "all uses."

When it really comes down to it, one could feasibly argue that the non-use of instruments is an argument from silence, even more so than the use of instruments is an argument from silence.

Can a piano drown out a singer, and thus "hide" the worshipful words? Yes, undoubtedly. Can a piano be used to support the singer, and thus draw the listener's attention to the words being used to worship the Lord. Yes, undoubtedly.

Will this debate continue? Yes, undoubtedly.

 

[defenderofthefaith]

No, I quoted what you said. Now you are putting what you said in context. I only responded to the context of the verse that you quoted.

Lets look at what I said:

God tells us to make melody (i.e. music) and he tells us to use an instrument - guess what that is?
Ephesians 5:19
"...making melody in your heart to the Lord."

And I said this in response to annsni

Yes, it enhances it but it doesn't change us because it's the act of worship and our hearts in worship that's of concern to God.

This entire part of the post was about your heart; me saying that it tells us to make music in our hearts and annsni saying that our hearts are the concern of God....
You wanted to assume and conclude that I said or I implied (and I quote you) "All music must be "in the heart to the Lord"." and that "Everything must be "in your heart,"." [emphasis added]

Sadly, you wanted to conclude and assume that I said or implied something that I clearly did not.

You also maintain the heart is the instrument.

I do "maintain" this fact; but you, again, want to conclude that I meant your heart is the only instrument but as I said in post #39....

"Both of these verses [Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16] refer to "your heart" but it also says to "teach and admonish one another" and then it tells us how to do that "in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs" so these verses tell us to sing aloud AND in our hearts."

If that be true, no matter what the rest of the Bible says, your music (whether instrumental or vocal) must be in silence.

You continue to try to make what I say and finish them off with your own conclusion.
I said the Bible teaches to make melody in our hearts.
You conclude that I implied that the Bible teaches to make melody in our hearts only and that the vocal cords are not authorized and all music must in our hearts.
But in reality...all I said was that the Bible teaches to make melody in your heart.

You must retract your statement about the heart being the instrument.

If I "retract my statement" then I would be ignoring what the clear and obvious scripture teaches.
When one plays the piano, the music is in the piano is it not?
When one sings praises, the music should be in the heart.

The Bible authorizes the heart to be the place of music and the vocal cords to sing of music.

What does this verse really mean? Have you ever studied it in depth? Let's look at someone who has. I will quote to you Jamieson, Faucett and Brown:

Okay,

psalms--generally accompanied by an instrument.

Note he said 'generally accompanied by an instrument' which generally means 'without reference to or disregarding particular persons, things, situations, etc., that may be an exception:"
which those "particular persons" that are "an exception" can easily be understood to be the NT Christians.

making melody--Greek, "playing and singing with an instrument."

Of course you continue to refuse that its obvious from both Strong and Thayer's lexicons that psalms [psallo] (and I quote) "In the New Testament to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song" and they (Strong and Thayer) excluded all previous meanings about musical instruments (in which those definitions were taken from a source that was prior to the NT which would explain why they contained meanings with musical instruments).
Do I even need to bring up Sophocles and his work and his comments on the word 'psallo'???

in your heart--not merely with the tongue; but the serious feeling of the heart accompanying the singing of the lips (compare 1Co 14:15; Ps 47:7). The contrast is between the heathen and the Christian practice, "Let your songs be not the drinking songs of heathen feasts, but psalms and hymns; and their accompaniment, not the music of the lyre, but the melody of the heart" [CONYBEARE and HOWSON]. to the Lord--See PLINY'S letter quoted above: "To Christ as God."

[/QUOTE]

Its interesting that when discussing this part of the verse, 'in your heart', they quote Conybeare and Howson, authors of the book The Life and Epistles of St Paul (written in 1852) and they say "Let your songs be not the drinking songs of heathen feasts, but psalms and hymns; and their accompaniment, not the music of the lyre, but the melody of the heart"

In quoting Conybeare and Howson's book the three men support my argument that the heart is the musical instrument and not the 'music of the lyre' (a stringed musical instrument).

The object of "in your hearts" is "grace." The phrase is "singing with grace..." They do not refer to "in your heart" as you suppose. Sing with grace is more like the command. "In your hearts" is a prepositional phrase describing how. We are to sing with grace.

Sing with grace....where? In your hearts.
Sing with grace in your hearts. (Col. 3:16)
Whats the difference?

And so they did.
What is your point?

My point was to show that I clearly believe that the vocal cords and the heart and authorized places to have music or to create music with and we have been authorized through direct command and through example (Acts 16:25).
That was my point.

This verse does not exclude instruments.

Of course you seem to have missed the entire point of my previous post....but nevertheless...

The verse (Heb. 13:15) does not exclude instruments. Correct.
The verse does not include instruments. Equally correct.
The verse does include "the fruit of our lips" (i.e. singing songs). Correct.

So the logical response to this is....do not include what has been excluded, do not include what hasn't been included, and do not excluded what has been included.

 

[DHK]

If I "retract my statement" then I would be ignoring what the clear and obvious scripture teaches.
When one plays the piano, the music is in the piano is it not?
When one sings praises, the music should be in the heart.
The Bible authorizes the heart to be the place of music and the vocal cords to sing of music.

The heart is the mind.
The Bible "authorizes" the heart to be deceitful and desperately wicked.
The Bible "authorizes" murder and adultery, fornication, covetousness, and all such sin to come "from the heart."

Mark 7:21-22 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

Out of your heart comes the foolishness of the prohibition of musical instruments in the Bible.
The heart is the mind. The Bible uses the heart and mind interchangeably. Demonstrate to me that the heart is an "instrument".
No, it is the vocal chords, the flute, the lyre, the harp, etc., none of which are banned in the NT.
With my heart will I sing praises unto the Lord.
With my heart will I play beautiful music on my piano.
With my heart will I play joyful tunes on my flute.
With my heart I will love the Lord my God.
With my heart I will love my neighbor as myself.
With my heart I will witness to the unsaved of the saving gospel of Christ.
With my heart I will do all things for the glory of God, and that includes playing musical instruments.

Note he said 'generally accompanied by an instrument' which generally means 'without reference to or disregarding particular persons, things, situations, etc., that may be an exception:"
which those "particular persons" that are "an exception" can easily be understood to be the NT Christians.

Don't be so naive. He was specifically speaking of the church at Ephesus. What a lame excuse. These comments were made specifically about Eph.5:19, and you don't think they apply to the NT???????????????

Of course you continue to refuse that its obvious from both Strong and Thayer's lexicons that psalms [psallo] (and I quote) "In the New Testament to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song" and they (Strong and Thayer) excluded all previous meanings about musical instruments (in which those definitions were taken from a source that was prior to the NT which would explain why they contained meanings with musical instruments).

I refuse your specific application; not their meanings at all. You want to apply a minor meaning not the major meaning. You are the one ignoring the lexicons.

Do I even need to bring up Sophocles and his work and his comments on the word 'psallo'???

Do I even need to bring up Strong and Thayer's works and his comments on the word psallo???

Its interesting that when discussing this part of the verse, 'in your heart', they quote Conybeare and Howson, authors of the book The Life and Epistles of St Paul (written in 1852) and they say "Let your songs be not the drinking songs of heathen feasts, but psalms and hymns; and their accompaniment, not the music of the lyre, but the melody of the heart"

In quoting Conybeare and Howson's book the three men support my argument that the heart is the musical instrument and not the 'music of the lyre' (a stringed musical instrument).

Please go back to grammar school and then come and understand what these men are writing. Don't try and push your theology into what they are saying. They don't support your argument at all. They contrast spiritual music (which may include instruments) to the music of the heathen. The prepositional phrase "in your heart," becomes almost irrelevant, as all things are done "in your heart" or with your heart. Our hearts are involved in all that we do, whether for good or bad.

My point was to show that I clearly believe that the vocal cords and the heart and authorized places to have music or to create music with and we have been authorized through direct command and through example (Acts 16:25).
That was my point.

OK:
The vocal chords are authorized in this way:

Matthew 12:35-37 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
--Your vocal chords are your instruments by which you will be condemned or justified.

Your heart is authorized in this way:
Mark 7:21-22 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
--The heart that sings the melodies of your vocal chords is full of pride, foolishness, deceit, wickedness, etc. This is what the Bible teaches.

So the logical response to this is....do not include what has been excluded, do not include what hasn't been included, and do not excluded what has been included.

The logical response is don't read into Scripture things that are not there.
Don't force a pre-conceived theology into the Bible when the Bible doesn't teach it.