Tom Butler
New Member
DHK said:
Instruments may not be mandated to accompany singing of the psalms, but they certainly are permitted and definitely not prohibited. Paul's instructions stand.
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Musical Instruments in Christ's church
- Thread starter defenderofthefaith
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Instruments may not be mandated to accompany singing of the psalms, but they certainly are permitted and definitely not prohibited. Paul's instructions stand.
defenderofthefaith
New Member
Tom Butler said:
Explain to me how you came to the conclusion that they are permitted?
Is it only because they are not prohibited?
Tom Butler
New Member
Because Paul instructed the Colossian church to sing the Psalms of the Old Testament, which were often sung with instruments. The singing of Psalms carried over into the worship of the NT church. Not everything in the OT was abrogated. When the first Christians worshiped, they had only the OT as a guide.defenderofthefaith said:
By the way, the scriptures are silent regarding a prohibition of instruments. Why am I to be held to the standard that they are not explicitly authorized in the New Testament, while you are not to be held to the same standard when it comes to the silence of the scriptures on the prohibition you favor?
Perhaps we could ask, "If an instrument is used in worship, is the players' worship more acceptible to God than the worship of the ones who only sing?"
Are piano players, or the members of the "praise band", or choir members more involved in the worship than those who simply sing along in the pews?
I don't think anyone would say so.
Let's look at the two most common verses which command us to sing:
Eph 5:19 - Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Col 3:16 - Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
First note that in each of these verses, whatever we're to be doing, we're to be doing it to each other. "Speaking to yourselves...", "...teaching and admonishing one another..." I believe this is called a reflexive reciprocal command. I'm teaching and admonishing you, you're teaching and admonishing me, etc, etc...
Just noticing this, we can make a few points:
1. If an instrument is implied here, then all assembled must use an instrument. This is a command, not an option. We're doing whatever it is we're doing to each other here, remember.
2. The instrument is either required by some obscure twist on the word "psallo", or it is prohibited by the command to sing.
3. Note what the music which is commanded must be able to do: Speak, teach, and admonish. I am a musician myself. I have known and played with several very accomplished musicians. Yet, not one of them has ever been able to play in such a way as to speak the simplest of words, let alone teach or admonish me concerning the Christian faith. A mechanical instrument is simply not able to meet the criteria of Divinely ordained NT worship.
4. The prescribed instrument to accompany our singing is given for us - the heart. We must be engaged in the words we sing to one another and to God.
Churches of Christ do not reject the instrument because we don't play or we don't like them. We simply find no authority for them in the NT. And don't forget, most denominational bodies in years past also rejected the instrument for the very same reason that faithful churches of Christ still do.
"By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name." (Heb 13:15)
Are piano players, or the members of the "praise band", or choir members more involved in the worship than those who simply sing along in the pews?
I don't think anyone would say so.
Let's look at the two most common verses which command us to sing:
Eph 5:19 - Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Col 3:16 - Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
First note that in each of these verses, whatever we're to be doing, we're to be doing it to each other. "Speaking to yourselves...", "...teaching and admonishing one another..." I believe this is called a reflexive reciprocal command. I'm teaching and admonishing you, you're teaching and admonishing me, etc, etc...
Just noticing this, we can make a few points:
1. If an instrument is implied here, then all assembled must use an instrument. This is a command, not an option. We're doing whatever it is we're doing to each other here, remember.
2. The instrument is either required by some obscure twist on the word "psallo", or it is prohibited by the command to sing.
3. Note what the music which is commanded must be able to do: Speak, teach, and admonish. I am a musician myself. I have known and played with several very accomplished musicians. Yet, not one of them has ever been able to play in such a way as to speak the simplest of words, let alone teach or admonish me concerning the Christian faith. A mechanical instrument is simply not able to meet the criteria of Divinely ordained NT worship.
4. The prescribed instrument to accompany our singing is given for us - the heart. We must be engaged in the words we sing to one another and to God.
Churches of Christ do not reject the instrument because we don't play or we don't like them. We simply find no authority for them in the NT. And don't forget, most denominational bodies in years past also rejected the instrument for the very same reason that faithful churches of Christ still do.
"By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name." (Heb 13:15)
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Not so, sir. They had the instruction of the apostles, did they not? In fact, to combat the influence of Judaizing teachers which were trying to lead Gentile converts back to the Old Testament, the apostles sent out the letter we find in Acts 15, in which the Judaizer's instructions to be circumsized and keep the Law were negated simply because the apostles had given "...no such commandment" (Acts 15:24).
The instrument is prohibited for the same reason the Gentile converts did not have to be circumsized and keep the Law. The apostles have given no such commandment. The lack of an explicit prohibition is not license to do something.
Oh, and which prohibitions are favored by churches of Christ? What is the double-standard you were talking about? If something needs correcting, I'm willing to fix it.
BTM said:
1Cr 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Musical intruments fall into the whatsoever catagory.
They are not prohibited if they bring glory to God. God created music.
God even uses intruments.
1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
defenderofthefaith
New Member
Wonderful post BTM :applause:
The OT Law commanded them to use instruments.
Col 2:14 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (KJV)
The ordinances here are the rules and requirements of the law of Moses.
Instruments in worship was one of the requirements in the OT - these requirements were blotted out.
Was Paul not determined to preach and teach the gospel fully? Was he not out to make sure all the churches were praises God correctly and completely? He would of not left out the note to play while singing if it was what God willed.
The OT Law commanded them to use instruments.
Col 2:14 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (KJV)
The ordinances here are the rules and requirements of the law of Moses.
Instruments in worship was one of the requirements in the OT - these requirements were blotted out.
You said it yourself, Paul instructed them to sing, if he wanted to let them sing and play - he would of said so.Tom Butler said:
Was Paul not determined to preach and teach the gospel fully? Was he not out to make sure all the churches were praises God correctly and completely? He would of not left out the note to play while singing if it was what God willed.
They also had the inspired Apostles letters and teachings.
On the prohibition I favor? Like what?
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Uh oh, we've got harps and singing worshipping the Lamb!
Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Sounds God honoring to me.
This has to be one of the silliest arguments I have ever seen on the BB.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Uh oh, we've got harps and singing worshipping the Lamb!
Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Sounds God honoring to me.
This has to be one of the silliest arguments I have ever seen on the BB.
defenderofthefaith
New Member
Amy.G said:
You use the word "whatsoever" here but a look back at the original Greek text we see the word tis which is defined as "a certain, a certain one"
Whatsoever does not mean ANYTHING.
If we can do whatsoever I want as long as it is to the glory of God - then I could go out and murder a false teacher and say "i did it for the glory of God, for 1 Corinthians 10:31 says 'whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God'"
God can use trumpets all he likes. God can strike people down too (Acts 5:5; 10) does that give us the right to strike down people because God has/will do it too?
This is about worship to God and how God wants us to worship him - he never approved or willed us to worship him with instruments.
Amy.G said:
Well, we're discussing what is done as acts of worship. Many things we do in daily life can glorify God, and yet are not worship. I could cut someone's grass all summer for free because they've fallen on hard financial times. It glorifies God, since I'm known as His child, but it's not worship. See what I mean?
God has given us instructions concerning how we are to worship Him. He always has since the beginning of time. Able offered by faith (Heb 11:4). Faith comes by hearing the word of God (Rom 10:17). Able worshipped as God had told him to.
Man has never been able to approach God any old way he pleased. Our obedience in life and in worship glorifies God.
And I'm not so sure God created musical instruments. The first mention of them that I'm aware of is in Gen 4:21, where Ju'-bal was the father of them that handle the harp and the organ. Ju'-bal was in the line of Cain, who slew his brother. I'm not saying musical instruments are evil, just questioning their origin.
The verses cited referred to events surrounding the Second Coming of Christ. We're discussing the worship of the church here on earth. Rules for one do not affect the other. Apples and oranges, Amy.
Where did you get this definition from??defenderofthefaith said:
According to Strong's
G3956 pas pä's all, all things, every, all men, whosoever, everyone, whole, every man, all manner of, no, any, every thing, whatsoever, always, any thing, daily, no, not tr
No you can't. Murder is a sin and sin does NOT glorify God, no matter what you say.
God is not the one using the harps in this scripture. The harps are played by the beasts and the 24 elders, using them to worship the Lamb. If God forbids instruments to be used in worship, why are these playing harps to Him? You cannot just toss scripture aside.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
ray Marshall
New Member
BTM said:
Living in Baltimore and running a pop route for eight years in the area of Jewish operated food stores, I happened to hear a jewiish woman talking to another jewish lady and the conversation went something like this:
Have you been in that new synagogue yet? "No" said the other woman. "Well, I was in there the other day and my mouth almost flew open, Right up front was a (piano, organ ) or some other instrument." I can't remember just what kind of instrument she was telling her about, but apparently, they do not use a music instrument in their services, or at least not at that time setting.
Defenderofthefaith you are using an interesting name for somebody in such bondage. You so impressed with the notion that you can set out to worship God by following some form that is set out in the written word that you are missing the Word himself. I hope you are able to come to see what you are becoming. I say this from somebody who did the exact same thing you are doing. I pray that you will see that you are becoming somebody who is "vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh." (Colossians 2)
From your post (#20)
Originally Posted by me:
"God is equally impressed with a hymn played on a piano, guitars, and sacrifices of dead animals."
Your response was:
"How do you come out with this conclusion?
Because you want him to be impressed? You think he'll be impressed? Your impressed so he must be impressed too?
Worship is about God and Christ Jesus, the audience is God - not us."
You think I am impressed with any of these? You are not even thinking clearly. Look back at my original post (#17, if you are still reading this) and see if you can see what I was saying. You are so bent on proving that musical instruments in a gathering of believers is a sin that you couldn't even comprehend what I was saying.
I typically quote using the KJV but I liked the way the GOD'S WORD ® Translation put it -
Gal. 3: 1 You stupid people of Galatia! Who put you under an evil spell? Wasn't Christ Jesus' crucifixion clearly described to you? 2 I want to learn only one thing from you. Did you receive the Spirit by your own efforts to live according to a set of standards or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you that stupid? Did you begin in a spiritual way only to end up doing things in a human way?
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using
after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh." (Colossians 2)From your post (#20)
Originally Posted by me:
"God is equally impressed with a hymn played on a piano, guitars, and sacrifices of dead animals."
Your response was:
"How do you come out with this conclusion?
Because you want him to be impressed? You think he'll be impressed? Your impressed so he must be impressed too?
Worship is about God and Christ Jesus, the audience is God - not us."
You think I am impressed with any of these? You are not even thinking clearly. Look back at my original post (#17, if you are still reading this) and see if you can see what I was saying. You are so bent on proving that musical instruments in a gathering of believers is a sin that you couldn't even comprehend what I was saying.
I typically quote using the KJV but I liked the way the GOD'S WORD ® Translation put it -
Gal. 3: 1 You stupid people of Galatia! Who put you under an evil spell? Wasn't Christ Jesus' crucifixion clearly described to you? 2 I want to learn only one thing from you. Did you receive the Spirit by your own efforts to live according to a set of standards or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you that stupid? Did you begin in a spiritual way only to end up doing things in a human way?
It is not a weak argument. It is one that you do not want to answer and therefore you say it is weak. It is true that the NT churches did not worship with musical instruments. I agree with you. I also have studied this subject out. But that doesn't make musical instruments wrong. Your logic says that because they didn't use musical instruments neither should we. You say you have no authority.defenderofthefaith said:
Using the same logic, you have no authority to build edifices that are solely built for the "worship of God." It is a colossal waste of money. It is used maybe two to four times a week, and then only for a few hours and then remains mostly vacant for the rest of the week. The majority of the building isn't used. They are high maintenance buildings with large utility bills--wasting the Lord's money that could go to support missions, or even the hungry and homeless.
Take your example from reading chapters two through four of the Book of Acts. Then also read Paul's missionary journeys. You have no authority to build church buildings. The early believers did no such thing. There is no authority in the Bible to do so. You go against your own policy, your own logic, your own theological construct.
You are theologically inconsistent.
DHK, defender is not advocating a building as an act of worship. A building is merely a place in which to worship. God never prescribed where to worship, only how to worship.
The command to "Go ye therefore..." does not prescribe how to go.
The command to assemble does not prescribe where to assemble.
The command to sing prescribes singing.
The command to "Go ye therefore..." does not prescribe how to go.
The command to assemble does not prescribe where to assemble.
The command to sing prescribes singing.
Amy.G said:
Amy, these verses desribe events in Heaven, they are not examples of how to worship in the NT church. And if it were, would we not need four beasts and 24 elders to play harps? Pianos don't even enter into the discussion if these verses are used.
Also, Revelation is written largely in figurative language. What are spiritual beings (4 beasts, 24 elders) going to do with literal harps?
defenderofthefaith
New Member
Amy.G said:
From the Textus Receptus
1 Corinthians 10:31
εἴτε οὖν ἐσθίετε εἴτε πίνετε εἴτε τι ποιεῖτε πάντα εἰς δόξαν θεοῦ ποιεῖτε
The word τις or 'tis' [transliteration] here means "a certain, a certain one'
You can even look it up in Strong's (G5100)
Murder is an example, but I like BTM's example much better -
If there will be instruments of music in heaven, it will be because God has willed it. The reason we do not have them in the worship of the church is because God has not willed it.
Revelation also speaks of incense being in heaven; we also read of a white horse being there. (Rev 5:8, Rev 19:11)
We recognize that these are figures of speech. Such is also the case with the harps in Rev 14:2.
As I've said before, the acts of worship found in the NT are through commandments and examples - God does not give you free reign to worship him anyway you please...he never has! From the Old Testament - New Testament we see that God blesses those who follow his instructions on how to worship and condemns those who do not.
Clearly I've misunderstood your point in post #17, so I apologize.
I do not understand, are you saying that we need not to gather together to worship?
I believe I did...answer it.
My answer:
Your confusing where you worship God, with how you worship God.
Whether we were in the church building, someones home, the fields, synagogues, cemetery, ect ect - we would still worship God in the exact same way.
The worship is what matters. Not the place.
Galatians 3:15
"Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto"
The Bible is confirmed (Mark 16:17; Hebrews 2:3) therefore no man should "addeth thereto"!
As you said yourself, the NT churches did not worship with musical instruments, they followed the confirmed Apostles doctrine. By adding musical instruments to worship, we are adding to the confirmed word.
Revelation 22:18
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:"
Again, like I simply explained it to you - the building does not worship God.
Musical instruments do worship God.
The building doesn't.
Musical instruments do.
The building doesn't.
Understand?
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