Musical Instruments in Christ's church

[annsni]

I play in our praise band. We have a drummer, electric piano, violin, acustic guitar. I play the 5 string banjo. defenderofthefaith would probably like to take us out and stone us, saving me for last. But it is alas a small country church and we need everyone we can get so they put up with us.

Tom

Good for you! While we don't normally use banjo, we've definitely had it and it sounds really great. Otherwise, we have similar instruments except replace violin with a sax/flute/penny whistle.

 

[Amy.G]

Originally by defenderofthefaith - Revelation also speaks of incense being in heaven; we also read of a white horse being there. (Rev 5:8, Rev 19:11)

Was the white horse worshipping God? If not, then your point is about as silly as the one you tried to make saying you could commit murder if you "say" it glorifies God.

The NT does not speak of instruments used in worship, but it also does not say they cannot be used. In fact many in the NT church were converted Jews, and probably played some sort of instrument during worship. If it were forbidden, surely Paul would have addressed it as he did when the Corinthians were getting drunk at the Lord's supper.

I'm still waiting for the scripture that states the Moses commanded the Jews to worship with instruments.

 

[TCGreek]

Defenders says:

But the New Testament did outline the acts of worship through commands and examples.
(Singing, Prayer, Preaching/Teaching, Giving, Partaking of the Lord's Supper)
You point out 2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

This verse says that is is useful in teaching (doctrine/reproof), correction, and instruction in all righteousness.
This verse is not concerning worship - it is concerning teaching and preaching; not worship to God.

2 Tim 3;16-17 has the OT principally in mind. Only a few NT documents were being circulated.

So we turn to the OT to instruct and so on...

It seems like you and your group are the ones who have put a limit on how and in what manner we should worship God.

Again, the NT documents are missional in their goal.

If there will be instruments of music in heaven, it will be because God has willed it. The reason we do not have them in the worship of the church is because God has not willed it.
Revelation also speaks of incense being in heaven; we also read of a white horse being there. (Rev 5:8, Rev 19:11)
We recognize that these are figures of speech, symbolic uses of words so that we might understand. Such is also the case with the harps in Rev 14:2.

Not if, we have instruments referenced in heaven. There's a difference.

It is true that they used instruments in the Old Testament, but, they also burned incense (Psalms 66:13), and the males went to Jerusalem three times a year (Exodus 23:17).
Is such advocated today?

Why do we need to burn incense? Why did the males go to Jerusalem three times a year? Why do we need to advocate them?

The Old Testament has been removed or abrogated.
Colossians 2:14 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;"

Ephesians 2:15 "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

Romans 7:1 "Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God."

Yet the NT documents quote the OT over and over. Do you really understand the matter? You're displaying a lot of ignorance because of your zeal for human traditions.

I guess you and your fellow-Cocers only carry around the NT.

Please, make an extra effort to understand those texts in context.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Yes, I too was wondering what happened to the OT -- praise Him with harp, the cymbals, etc. --- even the loud sounding cymbals.

So I guess it was OK for God's people to use musical instruments (even commanded to do so) in the OT, but it forbidden to do so now since it is not mentioned in the NT??? Yeah, that seems like something to build upon.

If you all don't want to have instruments fine, sing without them for all I care. But I have no idea why whenever a CoC'er gets on the board, they have to come beat a dead horse. Makes no sense to me.

 

[BTM]

The NT does not speak of instruments used in worship, but it also does not say they cannot be used. In fact many in the NT church were converted Jews, and probably played some sort of instrument during worship. If it were forbidden, surely Paul would have addressed it as he did when the Corinthians were getting drunk at the Lord's supper.

Historically (and DHK can back me up on this), musical instruments were not used inthe worship of the NT church for several centuries after the apostolic age. The reason Paul did not address the issue is that they were not used, not because it didn't matter or wasn't forbidden.

I'm still waiting for the scripture that states the Moses commanded the Jews to worship with instruments.

I know there are a few verses where trumpets (shophars - made from rams' horns) are commanded, but not of the other instruments found in the OT.

The following verses seem (IMO) to make a distinction between the trumpets (commanded by God), and the other instruments (commanded by David).

Neh 12:35 And certain of the priests' sons with trumpets; namely, Zechariah the son of Jonathan, the son of Shemaiah, the son of Mattaniah, the son of Michaiah, the son of Zaccur, the son of Asaph:
Neh 12:36 And his brethren, Shemaiah, and Azarael, Milalai, Gilalai, Maai, Nethaneel, and Judah, Hanani, with the musical instruments of David the man of God, and Ezra the scribe before them.

2Ch 29:25 And he set the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet: for so was the commandment of the LORD by his prophets.
2Ch 29:26 And the Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets.
2Ch 29:27 And Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt offering upon the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began also with the trumpets, and with the instruments ordained by David king of Israel.

Just throwin' it out there.

 

[BTM]

Yes, I too was wondering what happened to the OT -- praise Him with harp, the cymbals, etc. --- even the loud sounding cymbals.

So I guess it was OK for God's people to use musical instruments (even commanded to do so) in the OT, but it forbidden to do so now since it is not mentioned in the NT??? Yeah, that seems like something to build upon.

You use the name "FriendofSpurgeon", and that's fine. Are you aware of Charles Spurgeon's view of instrumental music in worship? It might suprise you. Here is a quote from Charles H. Spurgeon. (Again, I do not refer to him as a source of authority, just as an historical reference)

From "The Treasury of David" on Psalm 42

"David appears to have had a peculiarly tender remembrance of the singing of the pilgrims, and assuredly it is the most delightful part of worship and that which comes nearest to the adoration of heaven. What a degradation to supplant the intelligent song of the whole congregation by the theatrical prettinesses of a quartet, the refined niceties of a choir, or the blowing off of wind from inanimate bellows and pipes. We might as well pray by machinery as praise by it."

Who'd a thunk it?

Here's one from David Benedict (Baptist historian) from his book "Fifty Years Among the Baptists" (1859)

"Staunch old baptists in former times whould have as soon tolerated the Pope of Rome in their pulpits as an organ in their galleries. And yet the instrument has gradually found its way among them and their successors in church management, with nothing like the jars and difficulties which arose of old concerning the bass viol and smaller instruments of music."

Is it not interesting that only a few generations ago, you would be having this argument with a Baptist! This "dead horse" is one that Charles Spurgeon used to ride!

 

[Salty]

With the way I "sing" it is very necessary, if we wish to sing to the glory of the Lord, there had better be a piano playing the song:thumbs:

 

[BTM]

With the way I "sing" it is very necessary, if we wish to sing to the glory of the Lord, there had better be a piano playing the song:thumbs:

:laugh: Yeah, my voice is for those with low standards as well! But don't be afraid. Moses wasn't an eloquent speaker, yet God told him,

Exo 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

God knows our singing isn't going to win any awards, but He wants us to sing anyway, and He doesn't want any instruments cluttering up the works. And honestly, who hasn't heard a piano player who would have served better sitting in the pews with the rest of us?:laugh:

 

[DHK]

"David appears to have had a peculiarly tender remembrance of the singing of the pilgrims, and assuredly it is the most delightful part of worship and that which comes nearest to the adoration of heaven. What a degradation to supplant the intelligent song of the whole congregation by the theatrical prettinesses of a quartet, the refined niceties of a choir, or the blowing off of wind from inanimate bellows and pipes. We might as well pray by machinery as praise by it."

Even Spurgeon omitted some significant facts about David.
David was the most skillful musician in all the land. That is the reason he was called to King Saul's side. It was by his skill on the harp that he was able to cast out the demon in Saul, the very demon that not only troubled Saul, but that tried to kill David! Being a skilled musician may have great spiritual benefits.

 

[Darron Steele]

I am going to lay out some facts that I am sure some of our new posters are not going to like or accept.

1) Traditional church musical instruments were a commodity on the American frontier.* Some people came to view them as an unnecessary luxury, and disdained them. Well, in some parts of the the Restoration groups, no one wants to concede that they have an opinion. They want to claim that everything they teach comes from Scripture. So, they noticed that the New Testament does not mention their use in assembled worship explicitly, and on the basis of this added a ban against them. Had musical instruments not been a commodity on the American frontier, it is unlikely anyone would have thought a thing of musical instruments.

2) Acts 2:46 reports Christians “day by day, attending the temple together” (ESV); daily temple services had choirs singing with instrumental accompaniment.** When those Christians went to the temple services together to worship, musical instruments were used.

3) New Testament-era Revelation 5:8-14 reports John present with “elders” = congregation leaders “each holding a harp” (ESV) as they “sing” (ASV) to the Lord. It is unrealistic to think “sing” means the harps were not used for their purpose. John did not run away from this worship assembly, nor did he suggest there was anything wrong.

4) Per 2 Timothy 3:16-7, the Scriptures were written "so that the| person who serves God| may be complete, | entirely instructed for all good work.”^* It was written so that the individual Christian can know every good thing s/he should do. It was not written to fulfill every religious curiosity of mortals. Many Church of Christ people place central importance on their group meetings, and cannot imagine that God did not think the group meeting was as important as they think. They assume that God gave them everything they need to fulfill their curiosity about how New Testament era congregations operated their meetings. In reality, the events of congregational meetings were of little importance in Scripture -- so little so that we cannot reconstruct without conjecture even one meeting in order from start to finish. The New Testament is not a `congregation meeting handbook.'

5) The Old Covenant Law is enclosed between Genesis and Deuteronomy. Psalm 150, which invites worship with musical instruments from "everything that hath breath" is not in the Old Covenant Law. As Psalm 150 was written to "everything that hath breath" that would include Jew and Gentile; as this was for Gentiles, it cannot be of the Judaic Law. Therefore, Psalm 150 was not done away with at the cross.

6) There is absolutely nothing in Scripture where God expresses that He has changed His mind.

7) There is no authority for mortals to add a ban against what God invited.

8) The 1906 split of the Churches of Christ against the Restoration movement was mainly prompted by the former's desire to be a separate group from those who did not agree with them on their silence ban. Group matters are very important to many Church of Christ people; to many of them, their group is the center of their religious life. A reason why so many Church of Christ people are so persistent in their belief despite the baselessness of it is to defend the actions of their predecessors. If their predecessors were wrong, then the factioning away was wrong, meaning that their group made a mistake. They do not wish to accept that such a thing has happened.

The use of musical instruments to accompany congregational singing does not need to be defended. From what I see in Scripture, congregations can use musical instruments, and congregations can choose not to use musical instruments. There is no authority to outright ban a practice which God invites and which God has shown approval of in both the Old and New Testaments.

We will never convince them to abandon one of their group's `founding precepts.' However, in the end, they are stepping outside the authority of Scripture in adding a ban against something God time and again shows approval of.

___
* J. North, Union in Truth, page 248.
** Punton, The World Jesus Knew, pages 124-125.
^* NBV|ICB|ASV|RVR 1909 “enteramente instruído para toda buena obra” translated.

 

[dh1948]

I play in our praise band. We have a drummer, electric piano, violin, acustic guitar. I play the 5 string banjo. defenderofthefaith would probably like to take us out and stone us, saving me for last. But it is alas a small country church and we need everyone we can get so they put up with us.

Tom

Kudos to you, Tom. My church does the same. I believe it glorifies God as much as using just a piano and organ....or no instruments at all.

Keep up the good work!!

 

[dh1948]

I just noticed on defenderofthefaith's public profile that he is a member of a Church of Christ. That explains his position and his "corner on the truth" attitude.

 

[BTM]

I am going to lay out some facts that I am sure some of our new posters are not going to like or accept.

Looked like mostly opinion to me, but to many, opinions hold as much weight as facts. Good job.

 

[Darron Steele]

Looked like mostly opinion to me, but to many, opinions hold as much weight as facts. Good job.

Including to most Church of Christ `die hards.'

In fact, to those, if the opinions come from an esteemed leader, the opinions outweigh facts. That seems to be your disposition.

My facts, however, remain facts.

 

[rbell]

He doesn't want any instruments cluttering up the works.

Patently extra-biblical.

 

[Tom Butler]

Lest one think that all C of C congregations share the views of BTM and defendingthefaith, be it known that there are actually some congregations which have incorporated instruments, praise choruses, drums and contemporary music and raising their hands into their worship.

One of the largest C of C churches, located in the Nashville area did this about seven years ago. Needless to say, it tore the congregation apart.

I take no pleasure in any of this. I've seen it create conflict in Baptist churches, Presbyterian congregations, as well. I just thought the Churches of Christ would be the last holdouts.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Yep, everything when south when the Catholics stopped eating fish on Friday :tear:

 

[Darron Steele]

Lest one think that all C of C congregations share the views of BTM and defendingthefaith, be it known that there are actually some congregations which have incorporated instruments, praise choruses, drums and contemporary music and raising their hands into their worship.
...

Others have not adopted any of these practices, but have accepted that these practices are not wrong.

 

[Don]

Yes, I too was wondering what happened to the OT -- praise Him with harp, the cymbals, etc. --- even the loud sounding cymbals.

So I guess it was OK for God's people to use musical instruments (even commanded to do so) in the OT, but it forbidden to do so now since it is not mentioned in the NT??? Yeah, that seems like something to build upon.

If you all don't want to have instruments fine, sing without them for all I care. But I have no idea why whenever a CoC'er gets on the board, they have to come beat a dead horse. Makes no sense to me.

This is an excellent point. Defender of the Faith misses two other points that would seem to refute his position:

1) 2 Tim 3:16 For all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable....

Thus, to exclude the Old Testament passages with an argument as weak as "burning incense" is not using all scripture.

2) Was not David a man after God's own heart? Yet we see many references about David using, or encouraging the use, of musical instruments when praising/worshipping God.

Seems that DOTF wants to follow biblical examples, but ignores biblical examples....

 

[annsni]

Right now I'm listening to my hubby play guitar as he practices "Away in a Manger" with the children who will be part of our Christmas Eve service today. I can safely say that what they are doing is not only glorifying to God but pleases Him. I'm sure of that.