Musical Instruments in Christ's church

[BTM]

It is discussed. At length. I can't help it that you feel the need to disqualify passages from the OT, just because they don't fit your theological box.

Whether or not OT passages fit my "theological box" is not relevant. Which Testament we live under is. The fact is, the OT was taken out of the way by Christ when He died on the cross (Col 2:14). Just in case you've not looked it up, here it is.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

There is a lot of information in the OT that can be beneficial to us, but it has no authority to dictate how we worship God. What we do in worship now must be by the authority of Jesus Christ (He has been given all authority in heaven and earth - Matt28:18), per Col 3:17.

Since, in the NT under which we now live, Jesus has not given instruction (by command or example) for us to use musical instruments, we use them without His authority.

If God overlooked such things under the OT, (Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent, so be it. Now we need Jesus' authority.

Which Scripture were you using as foundation for this assertion: the one in 1 Hezekiah, or the passage in 2 Confusions?

What "assertion" do you refer to, two kinds of music or that singing (not playing) is commanded?

Of course, this would be a great place to mention that four-part harmony is not specifically sanctioned in the New Testament. Thus, it must be sinful.

It might also be good to recall that four-part harmony is still singing. Just as there is no specific command as to how we should "go", there is no specific command as to how we should "sing".

Well, I guess I'll have to throw out my books, written sermons, and my copy of Handel's Messiah, since they ain't no good.

Handel's Messiah is a remarkable composition. Listen whenever you like. But admit that the instrumental music teaches you nothing. Why would you throw out your semons and books?

I would be very, very careful indeed about calling another's worship of God "sin." You get into quite dicey territory in a hurry.

I don't do this to be popular. I'm not quetioning anyone's sincerety, but sincerety doesn't determine right and wrong.

Let me re-pose the question: are you 100% sure that every single facet of your worship is conducted exactly in the same manner as Jesus and the disciples?

I guess I missed this question earlier, but yes, I can show the acts of worship that I engage in from the NT. Can you?

 

[DHK]

You not understanding this verse correctly (or I am not understand how your interepting this verse) but the words "as the manner of some is" or [ESV] "as is the habit of some" is referring to "neglecting to meet together". Some people were "forsaking the assembly" and he is telling us not to do so as "some" people where doing.

No matter.
You have no authority from the Bible to worship in a church building.
Church buildings are specifically decorated to create an atmosphere for worship. Most have an "altar" of some type, a pulpit, a place conducive to the preaching of the Word and the worship of the Saviour.
You have no authority from the Scripture to build, own, or worship in such a place.
The early Christians never did so.

This is the same argument you use for musical instruments. It is valid, probably more valid than musical instruments because it is more central to our worship. When people look for a place to worship they look for a church building. They sometimes look for a cross, or for a steeple--both of which you have no authority for building from Scripture. Yet the steeple, in particular, signifies a Protestant church, or a non-Catholic one.

Have you ever heard an soul-stirring rendition of "It is Well With My Soul" done by a good pianist? I have. It reaches down in the depths of my heart and stirs me to bless the Lord my God with all my soul. Many of those great old hymns do. I am privileged, more privileged than most I suppose. Three of my children learned how to play the piano, and they learned well. And all the time they practiced I got to hear. And much of the time it blessed me.

BTM makes this statement (I assume that you agree with him)

Instrumental music cannot teach and admonish (part of the purpose of music in the NT church), it merely entertains the worshippers.

It is totally false. I know by my own experience how false it is.

 

[BTM]

It is totally false. I know by my own experience how false it is.

Excellent source of authority.

 

[DHK]

Excellent source of authority.

Yes it is. Jesus is my Lord and Saviour. I know. I trusted Him one day as my Saviour. I have a personal relationship with him. It is a wonderful experience.
I am so glad that not everything in this world is academia.

 

[BTM]

I'm just saying that personal experience is not a sound basis for faith. I don't discount it as nothing, I just recognize that emotions and experiences are fleeting. I don't trust them.

 

[DHK]

I'm just saying that personal experience is not a sound basis for faith. I don't discount it as nothing, I just recognize that emotions and experiences are fleeting. I don't trust them.

Then avoid all worship.
Worship normally involves one's emotions. Are you totally emotionless when you sing praises to God with or without instruments. Is there no emotion in praise. If there isn't, don't worship. Stay away from it.

 

[BTM]

Man, you go far beyond what people say faster than anyone I've ever seen! If a person worships in spirit and in truth, that person is going to be engaged intellectually and emotionally in the words he sings, prays, etc. However, those emotions are the result of things I know by faith, not the source of what I believe.

 

[menageriekeeper]

What was the purpose of the Law of Moses? Was it not an "instruction manual" for the worship of the one, true God?

And Christ with His death freed us from that Law. We no longer have to follow to the letter the instructions therein to gain salvation. Christ did all there was to do. It is still to be "used for instruction" but we are not longer bound to obey every point. (which was impossible anyhow!)

So if we are free from the Law, why are you then trying to bind us again, this time with a 'law" of your own making. You said "speak where the scripture speaks and be silent where the scripture is silent", yet you break your own precept by creating a "law of no instruments" where no such law can be found.

How is it you that you believe that our commands to sing preclude the playing of instruments? There is no mention of instruments in the passages on singing. You tihnk God just wasn't smart enough to add that bit in? Can you name any other item that is important to God that He hasn't given us instruction on? Are you so afraid, so insecure in your faith that you believe that somehow, if we don't worship just right, if we don't live just the right way, if we don't belong to just the right church, that God will somehow toss us aside?

See, the thing about arguments of this type is that it gives the impression that that somehow, what we mortals do (act, say, believe) has any effect at all on what God has said HE will do. Our sins are FORGIVEN. Its done! Singing to the accompaniment of music isn't going to make God any less pleased with me, because He isn't looking at ME. God sees Christ when He looks at me! This is the essence of being free from the Law!

So you think that God somehow has freed us from one Law, only to bind us with another? NOT SO!

Ro 14:7 For none of us lives to himself alone s and none of us dies to himself alone.
Ro 14:8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
Ro 14:9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
Ro 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. (NIV)

So then, if you chose to not worship with instruments, so be it! If I chose to worship with such, so be it! God will sort us out rightly and nowhere do I see our instruments as the dividing point.

 

[DHK]

Man, you go far beyond what people say faster than anyone I've ever seen! If a person worships in spirit and in truth, that person is going to be engaged intellectually and emotionally in the words he sings, prays, etc. However, those emotions are the result of things I know by faith, not the source of what I believe.

Are you falsely accusing me saying that my experience is the source of what I believe. Quote me first before laying that allegation on me. I never said that.

I said, when I hear my children play hymns, such as "It is Well With My Soul," it stirs me; my heart (emotions) are stirred enough to worship God even more fervently than before. But you wouldn't know that. You don't believe in instruments. I already know my theology. I know what the Bible says. Worship involves emotion. Read the psalms for a lesson on emotions in worship. With my children at the piano (sometimes all day long) playing the great hymns of the faith, my heart is truly blessed. Yes it affects my emotions, just like watching episode after episode of CSI or similar programming will eventually affect your emotions, but in a different way.

 

[menageriekeeper]

I'm just saying that personal experience is not a sound basis for faith.

Yeah, tell that to Moses. I can hear it now:

"Well God, that's neat bush you got there that doesn't burn up though its on fire, but that's a personal experience and well, that's not a sound basis for my faith."

Or David:

"You want me to do what, God? Yeah well, I know you sent the prophet Samuel down to talk with me and I know what I've experienced personally , but that's not a sound basis for the faith that I can kill that giant with just my sling and a few stones!"

Oh wait, we can't use the OT for our experiences so how about Paul:

"Well yeah God, I know what I experienced on the Damascus Road, but personal experiences aren't a good basis for my faith. You gotta write it down for me!"

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

You might just want to rethink that idea!

 

[Alive in Christ]

Annsi,

"Right now I'm listening to my hubby play guitar as he practices "Away in a Manger" with the children who will be part of our Christmas Eve service today. "

Oh my.

You are in BIG trouble.

You gonna get >>>zapped<<< by DHK for the "Christmas" part and >>>zapped<<< by Defender of the Faith for the "musical instruments" part!

Bad girl!!!

:laugh:



:godisgood:

 

[annsni]

Annsi,



Oh my.

You are in BIG trouble.

You gonna get >>>zapped<<< by DHK for the "Christmas" part and >>>zapped<<< by Defender of the Faith for the "musical instruments" part!

Bad girl!!!

:laugh:



:godisgood:

Well then, I hope they don't look at my post about my teen daughters dancing in church!!!!

 

[Alive in Christ]

Annsni,

"Well then, I hope they don't look at my post about my teen daughters dancing in church!!!!"

DANCING IN CHURCH!!!????

Goodness gracious, Ann. At this rate you could very well get branded a dyed in the wool, good old fashioned (((REPROBATE))) before the nights out!


Whew...You like "living on the edge" dont you. :smilewinkgrin:



:godisgood:

 

[thegospelgeek]

I'm sorta undecided on this one and I'm not real smart. So could someone look up the Greek word psallo? It is translated as sing in the new testament. I believe the Strongs # is G5567

 

[defenderofthefaith]

You have no authority from the Bible to worship in a church building.

We have the command to worship and that is what we do. If we came up with a list of every single part of worship (including emotions, conversions, confessions, ect) the "church building" would never be on that list - but with churches that use instruments the singing and playing would be on that list of all the parts of their worship.
There is a dividing line between how we worship and where we worship.

Church buildings are specifically decorated to create an atmosphere for worship. Most have an "altar" of some type, a pulpit, a place conducive to the preaching of the Word and the worship of the Saviour.
You have no authority from the Scripture to build, own, or worship in such a place.
The early Christians never did so.

Our church really isn't that decorated, but say it was - these inanimate objects have nothing to do with the worship service.

This is the same argument you use for musical instruments. It is valid, probably more valid than musical instruments because it is more central to our worship. When people look for a place to worship they look for a church building. They sometimes look for a cross, or for a steeple--both of which you have no authority for building from Scripture. Yet the steeple, in particular, signifies a Protestant church, or a non-Catholic one.

I can see where your getting this idea.
Musical instruments are inanimate objects that are used during worship service. The building is an inanimate object that we use during worship.
The error in this is that the musical instruments invade the acts of worship (singing) when the church building does not.

Have you ever heard an soul-stirring rendition of "It is Well With My Soul" done by a good pianist? I have. It reaches down in the depths of my heart and stirs me to bless the Lord my God with all my soul. Many of those great old hymns do. I am privileged, more privileged than most I suppose. Three of my children learned how to play the piano, and they learned well. And all the time they practiced I got to hear. And much of the time it blessed me.

1 John 3:20-21
"for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.
Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;"

Your heart is not always right and God is greater than our heart and he knows everything. If your heart condemns something then that can change - for God is greater than our hearts and if our heart does not condemn us then again, God is greater than it and he knows all.

As we can see from this verse that our source for belief and authority should be God - not our hearts.
But I do not say our heart counts for nothing; our hearts can guide us but God and his word is our true authority.

It is totally false. I know by my own experience how false it is.

The music can teach us nothing. The words accompanied with the music are what teach and admonish us and eachother and I know that many say that they know that instrumental music is right because of the emotional stir they feel inside - but again, our hearts are not our authority.

 

[Alive in Christ]

The gospel geek,

I'm sorta undecided on this one and I'm not real smart. So could someone look up the Greek word psallo? It is translated as sing in the new testament. I believe the Strongs # is G5567"

"Here is "psallo", from the Strongs Greek Lexicon...(and you're probably as smart as anyone here, and probably twice as smart as me. :laugh: )...

"5567. psallo psal'-lo probably strengthened from psao (to rub or touch the surface; compare 5597); to twitch or twang, i.e. to play on a stringed instrument (celebrate the divine worship with music and accompanying odes):--make melody, sing (psalms). "

:godisgood:

 

[annsni]

Annsni,



DANCING IN CHURCH!!!????

Goodness gracious, Ann. At this rate you could very well get branded a dyed in the wool, good old fashioned (((REPROBATE))) before the nights out!


Whew...You like "living on the edge" dont you. :smilewinkgrin:



:godisgood:

Oh my goodness!! If they saw me leave church last night, they'd have seen me carrying a bottle that looked like a smallish wine bottle! I found it next to my purse in the sound booth along with some other gifts for me - and I got nervous! But it's just a bottle olive oil. Oh my word! I just looked it up!! It's a $25 bottle of olive oil!!! YIKES!! I have NO idea who it's from! Hmmmmmm.....

So I'm toast. Christmas, instruments, dancing, a bottle of expensive oil that looks like wine and even a projector with pictures on it!! NO hymnals!

I'd better run now!

 

[defenderofthefaith]

Yeah, tell that to Moses. I can hear it now:

"Well God, that's neat bush you got there that doesn't burn up though its on fire, but that's a personal experience and well, that's not a sound basis for my faith."

Or David:

"You want me to do what, God? Yeah well, I know you sent the prophet Samuel down to talk with me and I know what I've experienced personally , but that's not a sound basis for the faith that I can kill that giant with just my sling and a few stones!"

Oh wait, we can't use the OT for our experiences so how about Paul:

"Well yeah God, I know what I experienced on the Damascus Road, but personal experiences aren't a good basis for my faith. You gotta write it down for me!"

An "emotional experience" and a physical experience are totally different.
Your emotions are not controlled by God - but the experiences of Moses, David, and Paul were all physical experience that were in control of God (burning bush, goliath, road to Damascus, ect)

Alive in Christ, annsni and others
Stop resorting to pathetic sarcasm at an attempt to ridicule us and our arguments. :godisgood:

 

[Alive in Christ]

I'll bet you even go to MOVIES.

And watch TV!


Where does it END??

 

[Alive in Christ]

And I'm no better.

I TOO play a musical instrument...and sometimes IN CHURCH!