Musical Instruments in Christ's church

[Alive in Christ]

Defender,

"Alive in Christ, annsni and others
Stop resorting to pathetic sarcasm at an attempt to ridicule us and our arguments."

Sorry. I'll try to be better.

 

[Revmitchell]

All religious groups that I am aware of acknowledge that 'music' has a place in Christian worship, but are extremely diverse in whether it is to be solely vocal or vocal accompanied with instrumental.
This question has generated extensive interest on the part of people. You can go on a home bible study and you will frequently encounter a question about instrumental music.

My prayer is that we will always abide by the principle "SPEAK WHERE THE BIBLE SPEAKS AND BE SILENT WHERE THE BIBLE IS SILENT".

The Kind of Music set for in the New Testament

- Matt 26:30 "And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives." (KJV)

- Acts 16:25 "And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them." (KJV)

- Rom 15:9 "And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name." (KJV)

- 1 Cor 14:15 "What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." (KJV)

- Eph 5:19 "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;" (KJV)

- Col 3:16 "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." (KJV)

- Heb 2:12 "Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee." (KJV)

- Heb 13:15 "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name." (KJV)

- James 5:13 "Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms." (KJV)


Arguments Used in favor of Instruments Use.

1. Some people have the talent to play the instrument. Should we not let them use their talents?

- Some also have the talent to dance, juggle, do gymnastics, ride horses, etc. Should we allow them use their talents in Christian worship?

2. We have instruments in our home; so, why can we not have them in our worship services?

- In the first place I do not believe the singing of sacred songs with the instrument is proper anywhere, in the worship or at home.
- For the sake of argument, grant that it is proper to sing scared songs with the instrument in the home, this doesn't justify it's use in the worship of the church. We have pets in our home, but we do not have pets in the church. We wash feet at home, but, we do not put feet washing in the church as an act of worship etc.

3. There will be instrumental music in heaven,
Rev 14:2 "And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:" (KJV)
so, why can't we have such in worship? Doesn't the Bible teach the Lord's will is to be done on earth as it is in heaven?

- If there will be instruments of music in heaven, it will be because God has willed it. The reason we do not have them in the worship of the church is because God has not willed it.
Revelation also speaks of incense being in heaven; we also read of a white horse being there. (Rev 5:8, Rev 19:11)
We recognize that these are figures of speech. Such is also the case with the harps in Rev 14:2.

4. People used instruments in the Old Testament in worship.
- That is true, but, they also burned incense (Psalms 66:13), and the males went to Jerusalem three times a year (Exodus 23:17).
Is such advocated today?

Also, the Old Testament has been removed or abrogated.
Col 2:14 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (KJV)

Eph 2:15 "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;" (KJV)

Rom 7:1 "Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." (KJV)

5. God did not specifically condemn the use of musical instruments.

- The Bible does not specifically say thou shalt not "baptize a baby", "Thou shalt not sprinkle for baptism", "Thou shalt not use corn bread and buttermilk on the Lord's table" etc. Are we going to permit these because they are not specifically forbidden?
If I told you to get me a coke would I also have to tell you to not get me a sprite, mountain dew, pepsi, dr. pepper, 7-up, powerade, milk, tea, ect ect - or would you come back with all of those and say "well you never specifically told me not to!"

Also, we are to do in religious matters only that which is authorized.

Col 3:17 "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." (KJV)

6. Isn't the instrument inherent in the word "Psallo"?

- The standard lexicons of our day say the word in the New Testament means to "sing a hymn" or "sing, make melody".
- If the instrument is inherent in the word Psallo, then it becomes mandatory rather than optional.

Arguments Used in Opposition of Musical Instruments Use in Worship.

- Instrumental music in the worship is sinful because it constitutes an addition to God's word.

- All the passages in the New Testament says "sing, sang or sung" with one exception in Heb 13:15 which says "the fruit of our lips". None of them say "played".

The scriptures specifiess singing, man says sing and play. In singing and playing we:
- Add to God's word and thus stand condemned (Rev 22:18).
- Renders our worship vain (Matt. 15:9)

Instrumental music in worship is failing to abide in the doctrine of Christ.

1. To fail to abide in the doctrine of Christ is to sever fellowship with God.
2 John 9-11
"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." (KJV)

2. Sufficient warning has been given not to go beyond the things that are written.
1 Cor 4:6
"Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not (to go) beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other." (ASV)


Instrumental music in worship is engaged in without divine authority.
1. Col 3:17
"And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." (KJV)

Lev 10:1
"And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. 2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD." (KJV)
(Serves as a warning regarding doing that which is not authorized.)

Things which are in Christian worship which are without divine authority are things which are sinful.

Col 3:17 "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." (KJV)

2 John 9 "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." (KJV)

Instrumental music in Christian worship is without divine authority.
Therefore instrumental music in Christian worship is sinful.


Let us take heed not to go beyond that which is written.
1 Cor 4:6
"And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another." (KJV)

Hmmm....... Do not wear a foot covering beyond sandles as shoes are not mentioned in scripture.

We do not want to add to scripture.

 

[defenderofthefaith]

I'm sorta undecided on this one and I'm not real smart. So could someone look up the Greek word psallo? It is translated as sing in the new testament. I believe the Strongs # is G5567

Ah - wonderful! We've finally brought up the word psallo!

I implore you to read this entire post if you are truly and honestly seeking the truth.

My friend, after failing to discover a biblical command, a binding example, or a necessary inference for the use of mechanical instruments in Christian worship, those who advocate the use of such music (as most of the members on this board) often - as a last resort - allege that the term psallo includes the use of instrumental music. Psallo is the Greek verb translated “making melody” in Ephesians 5:19, and “I will sing” in 1 Corinthians 14:15. The noun form of this term, psalmos, appears in such passages as 1 Corinthians 14:26, Ephesians 5:19, and Colossians 3:16. If one looks up psallo in a Greek lexicon (as Alive in Christ did) , you will find the following definitions: to touch, pull, or pluck; to twitch the strings on a carpenter’s line; to pluck or strike the cords on a musical instrument; to sing praises.
Upon reviewing these definitions, some claim that Paul’s use of psallo and psalmos implies the use of a stringed instrument in worship. But then they must further assert that these words always convey the idea of instrumental accompaniment to singing, even if the instrument is not mentioned. Are they correct? If not, why not?

When one studies the etymology of this word, he will find that it is incorrect to say that every time psallo was used in antiquity, it meant to play an instrument. By studying reliable Greek lexicons (dictionaries) and various historical documents, one soon comes to understand that the term psallo has had a variety of meanings in different periods of its history. In fact, the evidence indicates that even before Christ came to Earth, psallo no longer meant to play instruments of music. Numerous scholarly sources could be cited to prove this point.
First, Walter Bauer’s highly respected lexicon, revised by Frederick Danker in 2000, indicates that even in the Septuagint (a Greek translation of the Old Testament that appeared about 250 years before Christ was born), it is nearly always the case that psallo is translated as only “to sing” (2000, p. 1096).
In Henry Thayer’s often-quoted Greek lexicon, he noted that by the time the events recorded in the New Testament took place, psallo meant “to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song” (1962, p. 675).
And finally, Sophocles, a native Greek and for thirty-eight years a professor of the Greek language at Harvard University, declared (after examining a plethora of secular and religious historical documents) that there was not a single example psallo ever used in the time of Christ that involved or implied the use of an instrument; rather, it always meant to chant or sing religious hymns (see Kurfees, 1999, p. 47).

When one wishes to know the definition of a word from times past, he must inquire as to how the word was used at any particular time in history. For example, when one reads the word “prevent” in the King James Version (cf. 1 Thessalonians 4:15), he must understand that this word does not mean the same thing it did when this version was first produced in 1611. Then, it meant “to go before; to precede.” Today, it means “to keep from happening; to impede.” The word “idiot” was used in the seventeenth century in reference to one “in a private station, as distinguished from one holding public office.” Today, it is used to speak of “an unlearned, or ignorant person.” Just as these English words once had meanings that now are entirely obsolete, the Greek word psallo once meant “to pluck or strike the chords of a musical instrument.” But, before the beginning of the New Testament period, it had lost this meaning. In his well-researched book, Instrumental Music in the Worship, M.C. Kurfees noted that the word psallo never is used in the New Testament or in contemporaneous literature to mean anything other than to sing (1999, p. 45). The other meanings had entirely disappeared by the time the New Testament was written.

The fact is, however, even if this word had retained all of its original meanings (and the evidence shows that it clearly had not), the letters Paul penned to the Christians in Ephesus and Colossae specifically name the “plucked” instrument—the heart. Thus, a harp, piano, banjo, or any other kind of musical instrument is no more an integral part of psallo than the plucking of chicken feathers. The deceptive and misleading argument which suggests that in the New Testament psallo means “to strike the cords on a musical instrument,” is false to the core. It can be refuted simply by taking an honest look at all of the evidence available. [This Article was used with permission.]

 

[defenderofthefaith]

Hmmm....... Do not wear a foot covering beyond sandles as shoes are not mentioned in scripture.

We do not want to add to scripture.

The error in this statement is that the shoes we wear has NOTHING to do with worship - but the use of musical instruments does have to do with worship.

 

[Darron Steele]

Whether or not OT passages fit my "theological box" is not relevant. Which Testament we live under is. The fact is, the OT was taken out of the way by Christ when He died on the cross (Col 2:14). Just in case you've not looked it up, here it is.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

There is a lot of information in the OT that can be beneficial to us, but it has no authority to dictate how we worship God. ...

Again, you have failed to prove that musical instruments were a precept of the Law.

Asserting that it is over and over again does not change that. Had worship with musical instruments appeared only in the passages that gave the Old Law, I might agree with you.

What we do in worship now must be by the authority of Jesus Christ (He has been given all authority in heaven and earth - Matt28:18), per Col 3:17.

Since, in the NT under which we now live, Jesus has not given instruction (by command or example) for us to use musical instruments, we use them without His authority.

Actually, you ban the musical instruments without His authority.

Throughout the Scriptures in both Testaments, God shows His approval of musical instruments in worship of Him. There is no teaching in the New Testament where God changed His mind.

Again, you fail to realize that the burden of proof is against you. You are a poster who insists on adding a ban against a practice God shows approval of throughout Scripture.

 

[Darron Steele]

Hmmm....... Do not wear a foot covering beyond sandles as shoes are not mentioned in scripture.

We do not want to add to scripture.

The error in this statement is that the shoes we wear has NOTHING to do with worship - but the use of musical instruments does have to do with worship.

No; his point is entirely valid.

If a person walks into assembly with shoes instead of sandals or bare feet, using your reasoning, s/he could possibly be sinning.

Only in your OPINION is there is a difference between playing a musical instrument during assembly and wearing the `innovation' of shoes during assembly.

Of course, neither is a sin. If you did not have an `Our group can do no wrong' devotion to your group, you would not believe either was a sin either.

 

[defenderofthefaith]

Again, you have failed to prove that musical instruments were a precept of the Law.

Asserting that it is over and over again does not change that. Had worship with musical instruments appeared only in the passages that gave the Old Law, I might agree with you.

You bring up the Psalms and how they were not a part of the Old Law...

Here's some of what Alan Highers said on the subject of psalms.

"You also raised the question about the Psalms - psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. First of all, that does not necessarily mean that it has to be an Old Testament Psalm. But even if it includes those Psalms, it does not justify everything mentioned in the Psalms because Psalm 66 aslo commands animal sacrifice. The Psalms were written under the old law and embraced many principles of the law. If Christians sometimes sang praises to God from the Psalms, it did not mean they endorsed animal sacrifices, instrumental music, or toher shadows of the law tht are abolished in the New Testament (Col 2:14)."

Notwithstanding the eternal truths that are in the psalms (and other parts of the OT), we have to understand that they were written by men living under the Mosaic Law, and will contain references to and instructions for people living under that Law.

Actually, you ban the musical instruments without His authority.

This doesn't make sense.
We do not have the authority to have them.
We do not have the authority not to have them. (by what your saying)
You see what I mean? This reasoning doesn't work.

Throughout the Scriptures in both Testaments, God shows His approval of musical instruments in worship of Him. There is no teaching in the New Testament where God changed His mind.

You say both Testaments, but you fail to provide scripture.

No; his point is entirely valid.

If a person walks into assembly with shoes instead of sandals or bare feet, using your reasoning, s/he could possibly be sinning.

Only in your OPINION is there is a difference between playing a musical instrument during assembly and wearing the `innovation' of shoes during assembly.

Of course, neither is a sin. If you did not have an `Our group can do no wrong' devotion to your group, you would not believe either was a sin either.

My opinion? Its logic and common sense.
Musical instruments invade the acts of worship (singing), shoes do not invade any act of worship at all!

 

[Alive in Christ]

Defender,

Not only do you have no authorization from the scriptures to wear shoes (as opposed to sandals) in a worship service, but you have no authorization from the scriptures to us electricity to heat, cool, or light the worship area.

In the scriptures they used candles or direct sunlight.

You are in violation regarding full shoes vs sandles as well as being in violation regarding heating, air conditionaing, and electric lights vs candles.

Again...this all involves WORSHIP.

And you are in violation.


:godisgood:

 

[defenderofthefaith]

Defender,

Not only do you have no authorization from the scriptures to wear shoes (as opposed to sandals) in a worship service, but you have no authorization from the scriptures to us electricity to heat, cool, or light the worship area.

In the scriptures they used candles or direct sunlight.

You are in violation regarding full shoes vs sandles as well as being in violation regarding heating, air conditionaing, and electric lights vs candles.

Again...this all involves WORSHIP.

And you are in violation.


:godisgood:

Again, I repeat myself.
shoes, electricity, heat, air conditioning, lights, ect - do not partake in worship. They do not affect or invade the acts of worship.
Musical instruments very much affect and invade an act of worship - singing.

 

[defenderofthefaith]

By the logic everyone here is using concerning shoes, electricity, church buildings, ect, ect you would have to go tell the NT christians that they have no authority to have trees in that area of the field they happen to be worshipping in (because they don't have a church building), ect.
Do you see how rediculous this is?

 

[Darron Steele]

...

Alive in Christ, annsni and others
Stop resorting to pathetic sarcasm at an attempt to ridicule us and our arguments. :godisgood:

I agree with you that sarcasm and ridicule are out of line. I am glad that Alive in Christ apologized to you and wants to do better.

I have tried to avoid being anything but polite. However, you make it very hard for me, and evidently for others.

I realize that when you and your fellow congregation members get together, you share your most creative arguments against musical instruments in worship. You then `Amen' each other and admire what you have all come up with. It supports the party line, affirms the group's `rightness,' so it is something `great.'

You are in a different world here. Most of us are not predisposed to believing that musical instruments is forbidden by Scripture.

I might be the person most sympathetic to your view, as I would prefer vocal-only singing over a lot of worship music I have beheld. I wish the Bible did say something against a lot of worship music I do not like -- but it does not. To get rid of that disliked worship music, I would be happy to get rid of all musical instruments and go to vocal-only worship music. Again, my wishes aside, Scripture does not prescribe that.

Even with my sentiments, I am not going to go with just any argument against musical instruments. It has to have validity. The notion that Scripture prohibits musical instruments has no validity.

Now, even with my sentiments, if I am not willing to accept just any argument against musical instruments, I can assure you that most people here are less open than I am. If you posit an argument that no person not predisposed to your views would accept, it will not be accepted here.

In your group, when you are together, I suspect that even your most baseless arguments against musical instruments get admired. Here, they are going to be seen as foolish. The more persistent you are with them, the harder it is going to be for even polite people to not treat you like an idiot.

Lest I be misunderstood, I do not think you are an idiot. I think under most circumstances, you would not accept the very arguments you are proposing.

 

[Darron Steele]

Throughout the Scriptures in both Testaments, God shows His approval of musical instruments in worship of Him. There is no teaching in the New Testament where God changed His mind.

...
You say both Testaments, but you fail to provide scripture.
...

Because I already have. You just evidently did not bother to consider it.

Any person can go back through this thread and see that you do not know what you are talking about with that assertion.

 

[Darron Steele]

...



My opinion? Its logic and common sense.
Musical instruments invade the acts of worship (singing), shoes do not invade any act of worship at all!

Only to you in your perception, that is, opinion.

It is your dislike of musical instruments that makes musical instruments appear to "invade" "worship."

The playing of a musical instrument does not hamper my singing.

 

[Don]

Nowhere in the New Testament do we see musical instruments in worship to be the will of God.

And nowhere in the New Testament do we see the banning of musical instruments in worship to be the will of God.

I apologize; there has been a LOT of things written since I posted, and I can't address them all.

I will address your statements about "specific" and "generic" by agreeing with you; I often find a biblical principle that addresses many of today's situations, without specifically mentioning the situation or its many integral parts.

The same goes with this. You only need look at the many references in the New Testament that talk about musical instruments, to realize that they are not banned from worship.

Really? He showed approval for musical instruments in the New Testament? Please, lead me to this passage everyone seems to have overlooked and we can finish this argument.

Take a look at 1 Corinthians 14; while the main point of the chapter is about speaking in tongues, there are references to pipes and harps; and the end of the chapter emphasizes that the chapter is about how a church service is to be conducted. Me, personally, I don't think there are any coincidences in scripture; and to combine all these elements when talking about how to properly hold a church (worship?) service...well...if you really want to get down to it, the only thing I can find in the New Testament actually banned from a worship service, is women speaking....

God wants our lives and our actions all to be filled with seeking his approval, but from the beginning of time God has always been very specific on worship to him and as the OT examples show - any change in his commands on how to worship have caused condemnation on those causing the change.

So what were the Old Testament commands on using musical instruments with worship?

 

[Darron Steele]

Actually, you ban the musical instruments without His authority.

...
This doesn't make sense.
We do not have the authority to have them.
We do not have the authority not to have them. (by what your saying)
You see what I mean? This reasoning doesn't work.
...

Huh?

Your reasoning does not work. Bible-based reasoning does work.

You say we do not have the authority to have them. From what? It is not from any statement of Scripture.

The Bible shows that God approves of musical instruments in worship of Him. Prior posts list the Scriptures, such as http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1339626&postcount=50.

I never said that "We do not have the authority not to have them." I said no such thing; you wrongly attributed that sentiment to me, possibly in order to make your argument easier for you.

I said what I said, and meant exactly what I said: there is no authority to add a ban against musical instruments.

We can have them. We can choose not to have them. There is no authority in Scripture to add a ban against what God indicates approval of throughout Scripture.

 

[DHK]

We have the command to worship and that is what we do.

Yes, that is what we all do--worship. It is commanded of the Lord, and the Lord never prohibited instruments, just as he never prohibited church buildings. But you are not consistent. You prohibit one, but allow the other.

If we came up with a list of every single part of worship (including emotions, conversions, confessions, ect) the "church building" would never be on that list - but with churches that use instruments the singing and playing would be on that list of all the parts of their worship.

Chapter and verse please.
Since you cannot come up with such a list, as you just admit, you cannot be sure that instruments or church buildings would not be on that list. You lose on that count alone. It is impossible for you to prove anything arguing it from silence. Since the Scripture is silent on this issue you have no other choice but to be silent.

There is a dividing line between how we worship and where we worship.

Not if you have a mandate from the Bible on how, where, why, what, etc. to do things from the NT. If the NT is your example, your guidebook, from which you get your mandate to do all things, then church buildings are included in that guidebook--or ought to be included. But you are very selective in your choices. You prohibit some things and allow others. It is a hypocritical process.

Singing is involved in the how and who we worship.
Instruments are involved in the how we worship.
The building is involved in the where we worship.
Even the car is involved in how we get to the worship.

You condemn some and have God bless the others. It is hypocritical.

Our church really isn't that decorated, but say it was - these inanimate objects have nothing to do with the worship service.

I can almost guarantee you that if your building was simply a box with a door--no chairs, no bathrooms, no paint, nothing but a square wooden box-like structure with a door to go in and out, that many if not most of your members would not come. Yet that would be more than most Christians in third world nations have for a meeting place for a church, and more than the first century Christians had for a church building. And yes, it has a whole lot to do with worship. If you can't see that, then you are blind.

I can see where your getting this idea.
Musical instruments are inanimate objects that are used during worship service. The building is an inanimate object that we use during worship.
The error in this is that the musical instruments invade the acts of worship (singing) when the church building does not.

The church building provides an atmosphere for worship. There are many places that are more appropriate to refer to "the house of God," then other places. They are called places of worship for a reason. Fifty years ago these places never had a locked door. One could go into the building and find time to pray, not that they needed to go to a church to pray--but that is the way it was.

1 John 3:20-21
"for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.
Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;"

Your heart is not always right and God is greater than our heart and he knows everything. If your heart condemns something then that can change

You really ought to be ashamed of yourself. This is a veiled accusation, and it is one of the most insulting accusations, not only to me but I believe to God himself.

The above was your answer to my testimony that when my children play the great hymns of the faith on the piano, hymns such as "It is Well With My Soul," that it stirs my heart, and causes me to worship the Lord even more fervently than before.
That is what I said.
Now you accuse me that when I hear Godly music set to words about Christ, his atoning blood, and the peace that he gives those who trust him--you say that my heart is not right!!! Your veiled comment says that my heart can be changed (and should be changed--right?) You are most arrogant!
I listen to some of the most Godly music every written: How Great Thou Art, Rock of Ages, Amazing Grace, Wonderful Grace of Jesus, etc. And then you tell me that my heart is not right with God!!! How arrogant! You don't even know me. You only hold to a tiny thread of your twisted theology which you cannot prove.

- for God is greater than our hearts and if our heart does not condemn us then again, God is greater than it and he knows all.

No, God does not condemn me for listening to Godly music. Why would he??
Why the veiled accusations??

As we can see from this verse that our source for belief and authority should be God - not our hearts.
But I do not say our heart counts for nothing; our hearts can guide us but God and his word is our true authority.

The Word is my authority. The whole topic here was my listening to my children's playing the piano, and how my heart was lifted up in praise to God.
Now that you have falsely accused me, insulted me, and insulted the Lord (Scripture set to music is still Scripture--it would be an insult to God if you tell him that His Word is wrong to be sung to music), what more have you to say?

I pity you if you are a person with no emotions. If you have no emotions, you can't worship God. Praise in and of itself involves the emotions.

The music can teach us nothing. The words accompanied with the music are what teach and admonish us and each other and I know that many say that they know that instrumental music is right because of the emotional stir they feel inside - but again, our hearts are not our authority.

My daughter just completed her grade eight in piano. In eight grades I hope she learned something, because the lessons aren't cheap. It is obvious that the music does teach, or the music could not be taught. Music is taught for a reason. Remember the music that calmed the soul of Saul, and the demon that was cast out as a result of it. David didn't do it "by himself." He did it via a musical instrument, and that says a lot.
The emphasis must always be on the words, the lyrics. I agree.
But instruments, played in the proper way, glorifying to God, are not wrong. If they were God would have condemned them in the OT, and they certainly would never have been allowed in heaven.

 

[TCGreek]

You say that "only a few NT documents were being circulated" but we must understand that the apostles and those that were with the apostles were very much on the move teaching and preaching - the OT was not needed for instruction, they had the inspired apostles.

What then does Paul mean in Rom 15:4?

Also look at Galatians 3:1-5
"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith"

As we can see here in the letter to Galatia, Paul was all about hearing of the faith - not the law and its works (such as using musical instruments was a work under the law)

Not at all!

Paul is here defending the gospel against distortion in the form of law-keeping. The gospel is Christ alone. Not Christ plus the law. That's the genius of Paul's argument.

It has nothing to do with the merit or demerit of instrumental music. Speak where the Scriptures speak.

Galatians 4:15-16
We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Then let us look at how the OT has been taken away and the NT has been established!

Hebrews 10:9
"Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second."

He [Jesus] took away the first [Covenant] that he may establish the second [Covenant] and now we no longer listen to the OT but learn through God's Son; Christ (Hebrews 1:1,2)

The early church and the NT writers made good of the OT. You are the one who have a problem with the OT.

I suggest you read Acts and the Letters and Revelation to see the dependence on the OT.

You need to understand the nature of the contrast between the OT and the NT covenant.

Galatians 5:1-6
"For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love."

Here we see that Paul is saying that if you want to keept part of the law (in this case circumcision) then "he is obligated to keep the whole law".
So if you want to keep the part of the law concerning the use of musical instruments; then you are obligated to keep the whole law (i.e. burning incense; going to Jerusalem; animal sacrifices)

Again, not allowing Scripture to speak for itself. You are adding to Scripture.

And even if one were to keep the entire law perfectly doesn't equal right standing with God. You're missing the point.

I can understand what you mean, but I must also say that his skill on the harp was not why he was able to cast the demon out of Saul. It was because the the Lord was with David (1 Samuel 16:13; 18) and it was the power of the Lord that cast the demon out - not necessarily his playing of the harp.
Again, I can understand what you mean, but it was by the will of the Lord that his playing of the harp made Saul well (1 Samuel 16:23) and in the New Testament God has nowhere willed us to use musical instruments in worship to him.

Maybe you need to reread the Psalms to see how all types of instruments were used to worship and praise God.

 

[rbell]

Musical instruments are inanimate objects that are used during worship service.

Musical instruments directly worship God. Its a very simple concept to grasp.

Make up your mind. Which one is it?

I bet holding this position gets awful confusing sometimes. Doesn't it make you wish you were a Baptist? :saint:

 

[Darron Steele]

...
The emphasis must always be on the words, the lyrics. I agree.
But instruments, played in the proper way, glorifying to God, are not wrong. If they were God would have condemned them in the OT, and they certainly would never have been allowed in heaven.

-- and they would have been condemned in the New Testament.

 

[defenderofthefaith]

Only to you in your perception, that is, opinion.
It is your dislike of musical instruments that makes musical instruments appear to "invade" "worship."
The playing of a musical instrument does not hamper my singing.

Maybe I should use better terminology because "invade" has a negative connotation.
The church building has no affect on any of the acts of worship.
Musical instruments do very much affect an act of worship (singing).

You said it doesn't "hamper" your singing - I never said it does/will. But even if it does hamper or aid or strengthen your singing - it still has its part in that act of worship - the church building does not.

And nowhere in the New Testament do we see the banning of musical instruments in worship to be the will of God.

Why don't you address the fact that the New Testament doesn't ban juggling, horse riding, cooking, partying, ect - in worship - does that make it right? (of course one could come up with better examples...)

I apologize; there has been a LOT of things written since I posted, and I can't address them all.

Don't worry, take your time. :thumbsup:

I will address your statements about "specific" and "generic" by agreeing with you; I often find a biblical principle that addresses many of today's situations, without specifically mentioning the situation or its many integral parts.

The same goes with this. You only need look at the many references in the New Testament that talk about musical instruments, to realize that they are not banned from worship.

The many references? Like the one you posted about 1 Corinthians 14 (below)

Take a look at 1 Corinthians 14; while the main point of the chapter is about speaking in tongues, there are references to pipes and harps; and the end of the chapter emphasizes that the chapter is about how a church service is to be conducted. Me, personally, I don't think there are any coincidences in scripture; and to combine all these elements when talking about how to properly hold a church (worship?) service...well...if you really want to get down to it, the only thing I can find in the New Testament actually banned from a worship service, is women speaking....

And I will take a look at 1 Corinthians 14.
First we see Paul telling them to pursue love and desire spiritual gifts (Vs. 1) so we know this part of the letter is about spiritual gifts.
Then lets skip down to the part that you say references flute and harp (and bugles).
1 Corinthians 14:6-8
"Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching?
If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played?
And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle?"

Your trying to make this scripture mean something that is does not.
Firstly he calls them lifeless instruments (interesting, isn't it?) and then he says if they "do not give distinct note, how will anyone know what is played?"
He is referring to the earlier verse (6) talking about how will he benefit you, or build up the church (vs 5), if he doesn't bring knowledge, prophecy, or teaching and then he uses the instruments as an example of how will anyone know what is played unless they give "distinct notes". This reference to the flute and the harp is a metaphor.

So what were the Old Testament commands on using musical instruments with worship?

Commands actually in the law? I do not know of any, but examples of musical instruments as works under the law commanded by men living under the Mosaic law?
Here's some of what Alan Highers said on the subject of psalms.

"You also raised the question about the Psalms - psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. First of all, that does not necessarily mean that it has to be an Old Testament Psalm. But even if it includes those Psalms, it does not justify everything mentioned in the Psalms because Psalm 66 aslo commands animal sacrifice. The Psalms were written under the old law and embraced many principles of the law. If Christians sometimes sang praises to God from the Psalms, it did not mean they endorsed animal sacrifices, instrumental music, or toher shadows of the law tht are abolished in the New Testament (Col 2:14)."

Notwithstanding the eternal truths that are in the psalms (and other parts of the OT), we have to understand that they were written by men living under the Mosaic Law, and will contain references to and instructions for people living under that Law.

Huh?

Your reasoning does not work. Bible-based reasoning does work.

You say we do not have the authority to have them. From what? It is not from any statement of Scripture.

Your not making sense my friend. Saying we have no authority is saying that there is an absensce of a verse in scripture providing us with the authority to have instrumental music in worship.

The Bible shows that God approves of musical instruments in worship of Him. Prior posts list the Scriptures, such as http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...6&postcount=50.

Everything posted in your post #50 has been thoroughly covered and any scriptures posted show no evidence or indicate at all that musical instruments were used or encouraged in the NT church.
You can even speak with DHK on this matter and as he has said many times, he agrees that they did not use instrumental music then.

I never said that "We do not have the authority not to have them." I said no such thing; you wrongly attributed that sentiment to me, possibly in order to make your argument easier for you.

I said what I said, and meant exactly what I said: there is no authority to add a ban against musical instruments.

We can have them. We can choose not to have them. There is no authority in Scripture to add a ban against what God indicates approval of throughout Scripture.

You use the words we do not have the authority to "add a ban" against them - but your twisting this reasoning. We're not "adding a ban" we're simply "not allowing" them into our worship because we have no authority!
You say "add a ban" to imply that we're doing an act that we have no authority for, but not having musical instruments (in worship) is NOT DOING AN ACT that we have no authority for (using musical instruments in worship).