Musical Instruments in Christ's church

[trustitl]

The error in this statement is that the shoes we wear has NOTHING to do with worship - but the use of musical instruments does have to do with worship.

Until you see that God is as unimpressed with the shoes on our feet as He is with our instruments or lack thereof you will be like the women at the well who did not understand what worship was.

You continue in the ways of the those who "draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Matt. 15:8-9

Thankfully God is merciful and is ready to receive your worship with your shoes on or off, exposing or covering your dirty smelly feet.

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!" Isaiah 5:20-21

 

[defenderofthefaith]

Yes, that is what we all do--worship. It is commanded of the Lord, and the Lord never prohibited instruments, just as he never prohibited church buildings. But you are not consistent. You prohibit one, but allow the other.

You continue to stick with and repeat yourself with the arguments concerning church buildings.
The buildings do not partake, add to, take away, or even matter in our worship to God.
Musical instruments partake in and add to the worship service.
THE BUILDING DOES NOT MATTER IN WORSHIP.
There is a MASSIVE difference between musical instruments and the building.
Musical instruments directly worship God when being played. The building in no way partakes in the worship and in now way is used to worship God.
There is a dividing line between how we worship and where we worship. Musical instruments invade the acts of worship (singing) when the church building does not. Shoes, electricity, heat, air conditioning, lights, ect - do not partake in worship. They do not affect or invade the acts of worship.
Musical instruments very much affect and invade an act of worship - singing.
Maybe I should use better terminology because "invade" has a negative connotation.
The church building has no affect on any of the acts of worship.
Musical instruments do very much affect an act of worship (singing).
[I've just gone back and copy&pasted everything I've said concerning the building vs. musical instruments]

Not if you have a mandate from the Bible on how, where, why, what, etc. to do things from the NT. If the NT is your example, your guidebook, from which you get your mandate to do all things, then church buildings are included in that guidebook--or ought to be included. But you are very selective in your choices. You prohibit some things and allow others. It is a hypocritical process.

I repeat -
We are instructed and shown through examples, the acts of worship. The building has nothing to do with any of the acts of worship - but the use of musical instruments does, it has to do with the singing part.

Singing is involved in the how and who we worship.
Instruments are involved in the how we worship.
The building is involved in the where we worship.
Even the car is involved in how we get to the worship.

Singing is an act of worship.
Instruments have been added to that act of worship (singing)
The building/cars has nothing to do with any of the acts of worship.
Stop beating a dead horse.

I can almost guarantee you that if your building was simply a box with a door--no chairs, no bathrooms, no paint, nothing but a square wooden box-like structure with a door to go in and out, that many if not most of your members would not come. Yet that would be more than most Christians in third world nations have for a meeting place for a church, and more than the first century Christians had for a church building. And yes, it has a whole lot to do with worship. If you can't see that, then you are blind.

The church building provides an atmosphere for worship. There are many places that are more appropriate to refer to "the house of God," then other places. They are called places of worship for a reason. Fifty years ago these places never had a locked door. One could go into the building and find time to pray, not that they needed to go to a church to pray--but that is the way it was

Again, see my reasoning and logic concerning the acts of worship and how the building has nothing to do with that.

You really ought to be ashamed of yourself. This is a veiled accusation, and it is one of the most insulting accusations, not only to me but I believe to God himself.

The above was your answer to my testimony that when my children play the great hymns of the faith on the piano, hymns such as "It is Well With My Soul," that it stirs my heart, and causes me to worship the Lord even more fervently than before.
That is what I said.
Now you accuse me that when I hear Godly music set to words about Christ, his atoning blood, and the peace that he gives those who trust him--you say that my heart is not right!!! Your veiled comment says that my heart can be changed (and should be changed--right?) You are most arrogant!
I listen to some of the most Godly music every written: How Great Thou Art, Rock of Ages, Amazing Grace, Wonderful Grace of Jesus, etc. And then you tell me that my heart is not right with God!!! How arrogant! You don't even know me. You only hold to a tiny thread of your twisted theology which you cannot prove.

What I am saying is that our heart and our emotions and our feelings cannot be a accurate, consistent, and reliable authority. Hearing your children play hymns can cause a great stir of pride (for your children), love, compassion, joy, ect - but all these feelings don't make it right in the eyes of the Lord.
I never said your heart wasn't right - your going waaay beyond what I meant. I simply meant your heart isn't the authority for all right and wrong - God is.

No, God does not condemn me for listening to Godly music. Why would he??
Why the veiled accusations??

God condemns those who go outside his will, so when you begin to worship him with instrumental music - he is not pleased for the simple reason that he never said that is what he wants and we are adding to what he has said.

The Word is my authority. The whole topic here was my listening to my children's playing the piano, and how my heart was lifted up in praise to God.

Incorrect.
The whole topic here is about your heart not being the authority.

Now that you have falsely accused me, insulted me, and insulted the Lord (Scripture set to music is still Scripture--it would be an insult to God if you tell him that His Word is wrong to be sung to music), what more have you to say?

Stop trying to turn everything around to make it look as if I am the devil himself. I never insulted you, or intened to, you just took it that way.

My daughter just completed her grade eight in piano. In eight grades I hope she learned something, because the lessons aren't cheap. It is obvious that the music does teach, or the music could not be taught. Music is taught for a reason.

Your scraping the bottom of the bucket here.
The music isn't teaching, the music is the subject being taught - not the teacher.

Remember the music that calmed the soul of Saul, and the demon that was cast out as a result of it. David didn't do it "by himself." He did it via a musical instrument, and that says a lot.

The music calmed the soul of Saul by the power and will of the Lord. David didn't do it by himself, your correct, the Lord did it through David.

The emphasis must always be on the words, the lyrics. I agree.
But instruments, played in the proper way, glorifying to God, are not wrong. If they were God would have condemned them in the OT, and they certainly would never have been allowed in heaven.

Your arguments are turning emotional, repetitive, and personal. This is no way to find the truth, seeking the truth must be done through the Word of God.

 

[Darron Steele]

Only to you in your perception, that is, opinion.
It is your dislike of musical instruments that makes musical instruments appear to "invade" "worship."
The playing of a musical instrument does not hamper my singing.

Maybe I should use better terminology because "invade" has a negative connotation.
The church building has no affect on any of the acts of worship.
Musical instruments do very much affect an act of worship (singing).

You said it doesn't "hamper" your singing - I never said it does/will. But even if it does hamper or aid or strengthen your singing - it still has its part in that act of worship - the church building does not.

Huh? I would still be singing whether the instrument was playing or not.

Your claim that musical instruments affects worship is based entirely on your dislike of them. They might affect you; they do not affect me.

Why don't you address the fact that the New Testament doesn't ban juggling, horse riding, cooking, partying, ect - in worship - does that make it right? (of course one could come up with better examples...)



Don't worry, take your time. :thumbsup:

The Bible does not mention those in worship in any way. This is different from the matter of musical instruments.

The many references? Like the one you posted about 1 Corinthians 14 (below)



And I will take a look at 1 Corinthians 14.
First we see Paul telling them to pursue love and desire spiritual gifts (Vs. 1) so we know this part of the letter is about spiritual gifts.
Then lets skip down to the part that you say references flute and harp (and bugles).
1 Corinthians 14:6-8
"Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching?
If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played?
And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle?"

Your trying to make this scripture mean something that is does not.
Firstly he calls them lifeless instruments (interesting, isn't it?) and then he says if they "do not give distinct note, how will anyone know what is played?"
He is referring to the earlier verse (6) talking about how will he benefit you, or build up the church (vs 5), if he doesn't bring knowledge, prophecy, or teaching and then he uses the instruments as an example of how will anyone know what is played unless they give "distinct notes". This reference to the flute and the harp is a metaphor.

Well, I did not actually refer to 1 Corinthians 14.

My posts have referred to other Scriptures. I am sure, however, that you have some reason that they are `not applicable.'

Your not making sense my friend. Saying we have no authority is saying that there is an absensce of a verse in scripture providing us with the authority to have instrumental music in worship.

Burden of proof is again something you fail to recognize.

The Bible shows that God approves of musical instruments in worship of Him. Prior posts list the Scriptures, such as http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1339626&postcount=50.

It is not our burden to prove that God no longer approves of musical instruments when Scripture gives no such statement. We are just going with what is in the Bible.

The burden of proof is against you. You are asserting that we should not be doing something that Scripture shows God's approval of.

Everything posted in your post #50 has been thoroughly covered and any scriptures posted show no evidence or indicate at all that musical instruments were used or encouraged in the NT church.

Really, this "thoroughly" is so "thoroughly" that I have not noticed -- despite looking for a response. Perhaps you should have used the likes of `not' or `scantly.'

You can even speak with DHK on this matter and as he has said many times, he agrees that they did not use instrumental music then.

So what?

This would not mean that Scripture gives you permission to add a ban against a practice Scripture time and again shows God's approval of.

I never said that "We do not have the authority not to have them." I said no such thing; you wrongly attributed that sentiment to me, possibly in order to make your argument easier for you.

I said what I said, and meant exactly what I said: there is no authority to add a ban against musical instruments.

We can have them. We can choose not to have them. There is no authority in Scripture to add a ban against what God indicates approval of throughout Scripture.

You use the words we do not have the authority to "add a ban" against them - but your twisting this reasoning. We're not "adding a ban" we're simply "not allowing" them into our worship

-- and that is a ban!

If there is no Scriptural statement behind it, it is done by you. Therefore, the ban is added by you without any backing from Scripture..

because we have no authority! You say "add a ban" to imply that we're doing an act that we have no authority for, but not having musical instruments (in worship) is NOT DOING AN ACT that we have no authority for (using musical instruments in worship).

Not having musical instruments is one thing. If that was truly ALL you were saying, I would agree that it is perfectly acceptable for you to not use musical instruments.

But that is NOT all you are saying. You are doing more than just `not having musical instruments.'

You are saying NNE should have musical instruments. That is where you go beyond what Scripture backs. God has time and again shown His approval of musical instruments in worship. His last indication was in Revelation, as I showed in post 50.

You are asserting that a practice God approves is something no one should do. This is adding a ban beyond what Scripture gives authority for.

 

[Darron Steele]

Now you accuse me that when I hear Godly music set to words about Christ, his atoning blood, and the peace that he gives those who trust him--you say that my heart is not right!!!

...
Your arguments are turning emotional, repetitive, and personal. This is no way to find the truth, seeking the truth must be done through the Word of God.

Well, what if we all called you essentially `a rebel against God.' How would you take that? If you were a Christian, you would take it as an accusation of standing against what you actually hold most dear. You would take it as an accusation being sympathetic to this rebellious sinful world. It is no wonder he took it as a personal insult.

As for truth being based upon the Word of God, we have shown you the truth FROM WHAT SCRIPTURE ACTUALLY SAYS.

You are making assertions based upon your group's opinions over what Scripture does NOT say.

You assume what you actually need to substantiate; you assume what the burden of proof is against you to substantiate. To add to this, you make assertions and posit arguments that I believe are way beneath your intelligence.

If anyone deserves to be insulted, it is you. You have not faced even 10% of the insults you have opened yourself up for. If I was not a Christian, I would be having a lot of carnal fun at your expense, and I suspect the same is true of at least a few other posters. Please remember that next time you are tempted to charge any of us with a lack of devotion to the Lord.

 

[trustitl]

The error in this statement is that the shoes we wear has NOTHING to do with worship - but the use of musical instruments does have to do with worship.

Until you see that God is as unimpressed with the shoes on our feet as He is with our instruments or lack thereof you will be like the women at the well who did not understand what worship was.

You continue in the ways of the those who "draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Matt. 15:8-9

Thankfully God is merciful and is ready to receive your worship with your shoes on or off, exposing or covering your dirty smelly feet.

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!" Isaiah 5:20-21

 

[Jim1999]

Sometimes I think we need to ban the mouth organ in church. It tends to play at great lengths, often sounds like tinkling brass, and can be very aggravating.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[rbell]

Not having musical instruments is one thing. If that was truly ALL you were saying, I would agree that it is perfectly acceptable for you to not use musical instruments.

But that is NOT all you are saying. You are doing more than just `not having musical instruments.'

You are saying NNE should have musical instruments. That is where you go beyond what Scripture backs. God has time and again shown His approval of musical instruments in worship. His last indication was in Revelation, as I showed in post 50.

You are asserting that a practice God approves is something no one should do. This is adding a ban beyond what Scripture gives authority for.

Outstanding synopsis. There is a world of difference between "I don't like that" and "that is sinful."

Sometimes I think we need to ban the mouth organ in church. It tends to play at great lengths, often sounds like tinkling brass, and can be very aggravating.

 

[defenderofthefaith]

Huh? I would still be singing whether the instrument was playing or not.

Your claim that musical instruments affects worship is based entirely on your dislike of them. They might affect you; they do not affect me.

If musical instruments has absolutely NO affect, whatsoever, in any form, at ALL, totally 0% of an affect on any of the acts of worship...then please...explain to me why churches have them? Cause they just want to blow money on very expensive (though you probably proceed to describe to me how inexpensive they are) inanimate objects that are totally pointless in the entire worship service?
I think not.
Musical instruments do affect the singing, no matter what your personal thoughts on that are, its common sense - instruments work with the singers, the same tune, ect - and they affect that act of worship.

The Bible does not mention those in worship in any way. This is different from the matter of musical instruments.

Like I said, one could come up with better examples.
Animal sacrifice! That is a commanded act of worship to God from the Old Testament - why do we not do so today?

The Bible shows that God approves of musical instruments in worship of Him. Prior posts list the Scriptures, such as http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1339626&postcount=50.

I will take the time (later this afternoon) to totally refute these so called "facts" found in your post #50.

It is not our burden to prove that God no longer approves of musical instruments when Scripture gives no such statement. We are just going with what is in the Bible.

God approved of it in the Old Testament - which Christ took away and established the New Testament. (Hebrews 10:9)
So now that we are under the New Testament we have no command or examples that prescribes us to use musical instruments in worship therefore it is not found in the will of God and we must not go above his will.

This would not mean that Scripture gives you permission to add a ban against a practice Scripture time and again shows God's approval of.
-- and that is a ban!

If there is no Scriptural statement behind it, it is done by you. Therefore, the ban is added by you without any backing from Scripture..

Galatians 3:15
"Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto."

The Word has been confirmed (Acts 15:32; Hebrews 2:3) therefore no should "addeth thereto".
Adding musical instruments to worship is adding to the confirmed word of God.

Not having musical instruments is one thing. If that was truly ALL you were saying, I would agree that it is perfectly acceptable for you to not use musical instruments.

But that is NOT all you are saying. You are doing more than just `not having musical instruments.'

You are saying NNE should have musical instruments. That is where you go beyond what Scripture backs. God has time and again shown His approval of musical instruments in worship. His last indication was in Revelation, as I showed in post 50.

You are asserting that a practice God approves is something no one should do. This is adding a ban beyond what Scripture gives authority for.

We do not have musical instruments...for a reason. When we do not have authority for something we must not go beyond what has been authorized! Having musical instruments is going beyond what has been authorized therefore we must not allow it into our worship!

 

[defenderofthefaith]

Well, what if we all called you essentially `a rebel against God.' How would you take that?

Please, show me where I called or implied that DHK was 'a rebel against God' or anything close or related to something like that?

Look at what I said and what DHK took as an insult.

1 John 3:20-21
"for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.
Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;"

Your heart is not always right and God is greater than our heart and he knows everything. If your heart condemns something then that can change - for God is greater than our hearts and if our heart does not condemn us then again, God is greater than it and he knows all.

As we can see from this verse that our source for belief and authority should be God - not our hearts. But I do not say our heart counts for nothing; our hearts can guide us but God and his word is our true authority.

Note what is in red. This is what the entire post was about!

As for truth being based upon the Word of God, we have shown you the truth FROM WHAT SCRIPTURE ACTUALLY SAYS.

The problem is, the scripture says NOTHING about musical instruments being acceptable in NT Christian worship therefore the authority for that does not exist.

If anyone deserves to be insulted, it is you.

Your implying that I insulted DHK - when I did not, and if DHK took it that way, then I did not mean to and I apologize and hope we can clear up the misunderstanding.

You have not faced even 10% of the insults you have opened yourself up for.

Insults are a sign of desertion of facts and your arguments. When you resort to sarcasm and insults, it means you have no where else to go - nothing else to say.

Please remember that next time you are tempted to charge any of us with a lack of devotion to the Lord

Which I've never charged any of you with a lack of devotion to the Lord. You wouldn't be here arguing with me daily if you were not concerned about the truth and his word.

 

[Darron Steele]

...



We do not have musical instruments...for a reason. ...

Right -- the "traditions of men" in your portion of the Churches of Christ.

The proposed `reason' you have given has been refuted throughout this thread.

You are assuming what you need to substantiate; you assume what the burden of proof is against you to substantiate.

There is nothing in Scripture that states that God does not now mean what He has always said about worship with musical instruments.

 

[Darron Steele]

...
Your implying that I insulted DHK - when I did not, and if DHK took it that way, then I did not mean to and I apologize and hope we can clear up the misunderstanding.

...

Which I've never charged any of you with a lack of devotion to the Lord. You wouldn't be here arguing with me daily if you were not concerned about the truth and his word.

He did take it that way, hence his reaction, and that is how I saw it to.

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[defenderofthefaith]

Until you see that God is as unimpressed with the shoes on our feet as He is with our instruments or lack thereof you will be like the women at the well who did not understand what worship was.

Concerning shoes/church buildings.

The shoes do not partake, add to, take away, or even matter in our worship to God.
Musical instruments partake in and add to the worship service.
THE SHOES WE WEAR DO NOT MATTER IN WORSHIP.
There is a MASSIVE difference between musical instruments and shoes.
Musical instruments directly worship God when being played. Shoes in no way partake in the worship and in now way is used to worship God.
Musical instruments invade the acts of worship (singing) when shoes do not. Shoes, electricity, heat, air conditioning, lights, ect - do not partake in worship. They do not affect or invade the acts of worship.
Musical instruments very much affect and invade an act of worship - singing.
Maybe I should use better terminology because "invade" has a negative connotation.
The shoes has no affect on any of the acts of worship.
Musical instruments do very much affect an act of worship (singing).

What then does Paul mean in Rom 15:4?

Romans 15:4
"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

The Old Testament was written for our learning, but not for us to use as a guideline.
Acts 17:3
"The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent"
Those time were of ingorance and from that we are able to learn (Romans 15:4) from their faults and actions.

Not at all!

Paul is here defending the gospel against distortion in the form of law-keeping. The gospel is Christ alone. Not Christ plus the law. That's the genius of Paul's argument.

It has nothing to do with the merit or demerit of instrumental music. Speak where the Scriptures speak.

Galatians 3:1-5
"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith"

You said it yourself, he was defending the gospel against those who were trying to tell the Galatians they must also keep the law and the works of it.
Musical instruments in worship is found only under the law therefore it is a work of the law!

Galatians 4:15-16
"We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."

Galatians 5:1-6
"For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love."

Paul is saying that if you want to keept part of the law (in this case circumcision) then "he is obligated to keep the whole law".
So if you want to keep the part of the law concerning the use of musical instruments; then you are obligated to keep the whole law (i.e. burning incense; going to Jerusalem; animal sacrifices)

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Concerning shoes/church buildings.

The shoes do not partake, add to, take away, or even matter in our worship to God.
Musical instruments partake in and add to the worship service.
THE SHOES WE WEAR DO NOT MATTER IN WORSHIP.
There is a MASSIVE difference between musical instruments and shoes.
Musical instruments directly worship God when being played. Shoes in no way partake in the worship and in now way is used to worship God.
Musical instruments invade the acts of worship (singing) when shoes do not. Shoes, electricity, heat, air conditioning, lights, ect - do not partake in worship. They do not affect or invade the acts of worship.
Musical instruments very much affect and invade an act of worship - singing.
Maybe I should use better terminology because "invade" has a negative connotation.
The shoes has no affect on any of the acts of worship.
Musical instruments do very much affect an act of worship (singing).





Romans 15:4
"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

The Old Testament was written for our learning, but not for us to use as a guideline.
Acts 17:3
"The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent"
Those time were of ingorance and from that we are able to learn (Romans 15:4) from their faults and actions.



Galatians 3:1-5
"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith"

You said it yourself, he was defending the gospel against those who were trying to tell the Galatians they must also keep the law and the works of it.
Musical instruments in worship is found only under the law therefore it is a work of the law!

Galatians 4:15-16
"We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."

Galatians 5:1-6
"For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love."

Paul is saying that if you want to keept part of the law (in this case circumcision) then "he is obligated to keep the whole law".
So if you want to keep the part of the law concerning the use of musical instruments; then you are obligated to keep the whole law (i.e. burning incense; going to Jerusalem; animal sacrifices)

How do you combine law with the use of musical instruments? Strange. It seems to me the Psalmist often makes referrences to use of musical instruments in praising God such as the 10 string lyre and the horns. Jewish worship in the temple was liturgical in a respect and it seems musical instruments were used especially when looking at the Qumran find. So why is a denomniation so adament about not using instruments in their service? Strange.

 

[DHK]

If musical instruments has absolutely NO affect, whatsoever, in any form, at ALL, totally 0% of an affect on any of the acts of worship...then please...explain to me why churches have them? Cause they just want to blow money on very expensive (though you probably proceed to describe to me how inexpensive they are) inanimate objects that are totally pointless in the entire worship service?
I think not.
Musical instruments do affect the singing, no matter what your personal thoughts on that are, its common sense - instruments work with the singers, the same tune, ect - and they affect that act of worship.

Yes they affect the act of worship. You are right. They affect it all for good, just like it is in heaven. Do you pray as the Lord taught: "As in heaven, so on earth." Interesting verse isn't it? I wonder if that applies to that part of our life that worships our Saviour. If it does, then you are clearly in the wrong. For instruments are used in the worship of God in heaven.

Secondly, instruments affect the worship service in that they teach, just as Scripture tells us that they should do. Our church can sing any hymn in the hymn book (and there are over 500 of them), and we already know them. The reason for that is two-fold. One, we have a song leader that can read music, and secondly, we have a piano player that can read music. The hymn is taught by the piano playing through the hymn so that the congregation can learn the tune. Then the song leader can begin to teach the people with the assistance of the piano.

Thirdly, the piano keeps everyone together. They all know when to start on the same note. That is the song leader's job, true; but the song leader knows by the intro of the piano, as do the rest of the congregation.

Fourthly, it keeps everyone in tune. They follow the piano. If they are not familiar with the tune they can listen to the piano, not just the person around them--who may not sing well and be off key.
--The piano is a teaching instrument, as are other instruments as well. To deny this is to deny actual facts.

Fifth, it enhances the music of the people singing. The accompaniment of the piano often causes a more positive effect, not negative as you suppose.
You are dead wrong on your suppositions.

Psalms 147:7 Sing unto the LORD with thanksgiving; sing praise upon the harp unto our God:
--Whose word shall I take: yours or God's

Revelation 5:8-9 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

The NT saints in heaven will be praising God with harps, instruments of music.
--Who shall I believe: you or God?

We do not have musical instruments...for a reason. When we do not have authority for something we must not go beyond what has been authorized! Having musical instruments is going beyond what has been authorized therefore we must not allow it into our worship!

You do not have authority for a church building either. Go worship in the snow.
Use the cemeteries as some of the early believers did. And please don't tell me it won't affect your worship; it will. You really don't get this point do you?
Read missionary biographies.
I think it was Brainerd who spent hours in a snow bank praying for the power of God to be upon him that he might reach the aboriginal people of this land, whose language he didn't even know at that time. God is not willing that any should perish. God gave him the desire of his heart. Brainerd didn't have a church building; he had the power of God.
Rethink your position.

 

[Don]

The Old Testament was written for our learning, but not for us to use as a guideline.

Dude! What do you mean?!? Don't you use guidelines to learn? How can you learn if you don't have a guideline?

Besides, Romans 13 totally contradicts your statement. If any section of the New Testament reiterates something from the Old Testament -- and many do -- then the Old Testament has much, much more relevance than you're willing to give it.

Acts 17:3
"The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent"

I believe you meant Acts 17:30; and this passage had nothing to do with the Old Testament. It was addressed to those that were making idols, which, as you might recall, the Old Testament said not to do.

You said it yourself, he was defending the gospel against those who were trying to tell the Galatians they must also keep the law and the works of it.
Musical instruments in worship is found only under the law therefore it is a work of the law!

Yeesh. That's all I can say about this silly statement.

Galatians 5:1-6
"For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love."

Paul is saying that if you want to keept part of the law (in this case circumcision) then "he is obligated to keep the whole law".
So if you want to keep the part of the law concerning the use of musical instruments; then you are obligated to keep the whole law (i.e. burning incense; going to Jerusalem; animal sacrifices)

Please enlighten me; where was it commanded that we must use musical instruments in worship? Where was it stated that not using musical instruments was a sin against God? Where in the Law (the first five books of the Old Testament) were musical instruments put in the same category as the dietary laws?

 

[rbell]

Yes they affect the act of worship. You are right. They affect it all for good, just like it is in heaven. Do you pray as the Lord taught: "As in heaven, so on earth." Interesting verse isn't it? I wonder if that applies to that part of our life that worships our Saviour. If it does, then you are clearly in the wrong. For instruments are used in the worship of God in heaven.

Secondly, instruments affect the worship service in that they teach, just as Scripture tells us that they should do. Our church can sing any hymn in the hymn book (and there are over 500 of them), and we already know them. The reason for that is two-fold. One, we have a song leader that can read music, and secondly, we have a piano player that can read music. The hymn is taught by the piano playing through the hymn so that the congregation can learn the tune. Then the song leader can begin to teach the people with the assistance of the piano.

Thirdly, the piano keeps everyone together. They all know when to start on the same note. That is the song leader's job, true; but the song leader knows by the intro of the piano, as do the rest of the congregation.

Fourthly, it keeps everyone in tune. They follow the piano. If they are not familiar with the tune they can listen to the piano, not just the person around them--who may not sing well and be off key.
--The piano is a teaching instrument, as are other instruments as well. To deny this is to deny actual facts.

Fifth, it enhances the music of the people singing. The accompaniment of the piano often causes a more positive effect, not negative as you suppose.
You are dead wrong on your suppositions.

Psalms 147:7 Sing unto the LORD with thanksgiving; sing praise upon the harp unto our God:
--Whose word shall I take: yours or God's
Revelation 5:8-9 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

So...

during the Old Testament, we could use intstruments.
when we get to heaven, we can use instruments.

Just not right now?

riiiiight.

 

[Darron Steele]

So...

during the Old Testament, we could use intstruments.
when we get to heaven, we can use instruments.

Just not right now?

riiiiight.

Yeah; you would think the Scriptures would have said something to that effect.

They did not.

 

[defenderofthefaith]

How do you combine law with the use of musical instruments? Strange. It seems to me the Psalmist often makes referrences to use of musical instruments in praising God such as the 10 string lyre and the horns. Jewish worship in the temple was liturgical in a respect and it seems musical instruments were used especially when looking at the Qumran find. So why is a denomniation so adament about not using instruments in their service? Strange.

The Psalmist was a man under the Mosaic Law and his worship was a work of the law. His worship consisted of musical instruments - therefore musical instruments in worship is of the law.

Yes they affect the act of worship. You are right. They affect it all for good, just like it is in heaven. Do you pray as the Lord taught: "As in heaven, so on earth." Interesting verse isn't it? I wonder if that applies to that part of our life that worships our Saviour. If it does, then you are clearly in the wrong. For instruments are used in the worship of God in heaven.

Revelation 5:8-9 [ESV]
"And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
And they sang a new song, saying,
Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,"

Concerning Revelation....
The fact is that the book of Revelation uses extensive figurative language. Revelation is also a book of apocalyptic literature. Several books of Jewish apocalyptic literature are available for everyone, such as in the Old Testament, the books of Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Joel contain apocalyptic literature.
Apocalyptic literature uses signs and symbols to veil its message to outside readers. This type of literature was written when the Jewish nation was amidst one of its most tumultuous times—when the Israelites were under attack, or ruled over, by another powerful nation.
Ray Summers explained as follows: “The personal safety of both writer and reader was endangered if the persecutors understood the true meaning of the book. For this reason the message of the apocalypse [Revelation and other books] was written so as to conceal and to reveal—to conceal the message from the outsider but to reveal its message to the initiated” (1951, p. 5)

With this principle understood, we can realize that the "harps" found in Revelation 5:8 is symbolic. More evidence that Revelation is a book of figurative language can be understood in chapter one.
In chapter one (verses 12-17) we read about “One like the Son of Man” who walks among seven golden lampstands and who has a “sharp two-edged sword” coming out of His mouth—a strange picture indeed. But when we continue to read, we find that this man is Jesus, and the seven lampstands are the “seven churches” of Asia (1:20). But what does the sword represent? In apocalyptic literature, a sword coming out of someone’s mouth meant that they were coming to judge a group of people. In Ephesians 6:17, Paul explained that the sword of the Spirit is the Word of God. Hebrews 4:12 explains that “the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword.” And John 12:48 informs us that the words of Jesus will judge all people at the last days. The sword coming out of Jesus’ mouth in Revelation 1 is God’s Word, which Jesus was using to judge the churches. Putting the entire picture together, we see Jesus walking among the churches of Asia, cutting out the cancers of sin with the Word of God.
As apocalyptic literature shoes - symbols such as horns often represent kings, numbers represent strength, weakness, perfection, or imperfection, and beasts represent evil nations or powers, ect, ect!

We cannot look to Revelation as a literal guide; it is a book full of symbols and signs that represent something other than the current day definition.

 

[defenderofthefaith]

Do you pray as the Lord taught: "As in heaven, so on earth." Interesting verse isn't it? I wonder if that applies to that part of our life that worships our Saviour?

Luke 11:2? (KJV)
"And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. "
Referring to his will being done in heaven and on earth? It's really referring to his will being done - not much of anything else.
But, this verse has me quite confused.
Fristly, Luke's account has "as in heaven, so in earth" but the ESV version (which I've heard countless men from all different denominations praise for being one of the best) says-
Luke 11:2
"And he said to them, "When you pray, say: Father, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come."
Thats it...?
Hmmm....

Secondly, instruments affect the worship service in that they teach, just as Scripture tells us that they should do.

Where does scripture tell us that instruments teach? Paul called them "lifeless instruments" in 1 Corinthians 14:7.

Thirdly, the piano keeps everyone together. They all know when to start on the same note. That is the song leader's job, true; but the song leader knows by the intro of the piano, as do the rest of the congregation.

Just because the piano keeps everyone together doesn't make it right - the church I attend to, the congregation has no problem at all keeping together and starting together.

Fifth, it enhances the music of the people singing. The accompaniment of the piano often causes a more positive effect, not negative as you suppose.
You are dead wrong on your suppositions.

Notice that its your opinion that is enhances peoples singing, and its your opinion that it has a more positive effect. I don't care if its everybody's opinion that it has a more positive effect - whats Gods opinion? Whats God want? Whats God commanded?
The audience, the one truly listening, is God - not the ones singing or the ones who don't know the song and aren't singing - The Audience Is God.

You do not have authority for a church building either.

When are you going to give that argument up! Why do you keep ignoring what I've said and what makes sense and just repeating yourself???

Use the cemeteries as some of the early believers did. And please don't tell me it won't affect your worship; it will. You really don't get this point do you?
Read missionary biographies.
I think it was Brainerd who spent hours in a snow bank praying for the power of God to be upon him that he might reach the aboriginal people of this land, whose language he didn't even know at that time. God is not willing that any should perish. God gave him the desire of his heart. Brainerd didn't have a church building; he had the power of God.
Rethink your position.

Hmm...we'll sing in the snow, we'll pray in the snow, we'll preach in the snow, we'll eat the Lord's Supper in the snow, we'll give of our means in the snow....yeah - doesn't look like the worship changed in anyway. The worship is about God - not if the worshippers don't have a seat, are freezing cold, or are uncomfortable.

 

[Darron Steele]

The Psalmist was a man under the Mosaic Law and his worship was a work of the law. His worship consisted of musical instruments - therefore musical instruments in worship is of the law.

No matter how many times you say this, it is still not true.

The Law was in the five books of Moses. Only in your group will anyone accept that the Psalms were part of the Law.

Further, Psalm 150 urges use of musical instruments to "everything that hath breath." That would include Gentiles, who were not under the Judaic Law. Worship with musical instruments is not a precept of the Law.

Revelation 5:8-9 [ESV]
"And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
And they sang a new song, saying,
Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,"

Concerning Revelation....
The fact is that the book of Revelation uses extensive figurative language. Revelation is also a book of apocalyptic literature. Several books of Jewish apocalyptic literature are available for everyone, such as in the Old Testament, the books of Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Joel contain apocalyptic literature.
Apocalyptic literature uses signs and symbols to veil its message to outside readers. This type of literature was written when the Jewish nation was amidst one of its most tumultuous times—when the Israelites were under attack, or ruled over, by another powerful nation.
Ray Summers explained as follows: “The personal safety of both writer and reader was endangered if the persecutors understood the true meaning of the book. For this reason the message of the apocalypse [Revelation and other books] was written so as to conceal and to reveal—to conceal the message from the outsider but to reveal its message to the initiated” (1951, p. 5)

With this principle understood, we can realize that the "harps" found in Revelation 5:8 is symbolic.
...
We cannot look to Revelation as a literal guide; it is a book full of symbols and signs that represent something other than the current day definition.

As I predicted, you would say that this portion of Scripture does not apply.

I think I will stick with accepting that Scripture does apply.

The Greek word translated "elders" is that which is used to describe congregation leaders. I will accept that church "elders" holding "harps" during "song" is not evil.