Betty, your post made me think of something else. When you mentioned working to train the ear, I thought about how some shape note music teachers emphasize learning the "distance" between the notes. This is practiced as the syllables are sung. It becomes a part of memorization to know that it is so far from do to me and from do to so, etc. In traditions where the syllables are actually sung, this a very good way to learn a new song - that is, singing it through by the syllables first. I'm not saying this is done in church, but in singings, singing schools, and practices.
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Musical Instruments, or the lack thereof
- Thread starter TheOliveBranch
- Start date
OliveBranch, I'd say that the simplest explanation is based on the fact that the New Testament church did not use instruments. For some, believing it is the only way, it becomes a very important matter of doctrine. Some others believe the apostolic practice is the best way (but not necessarily the only way) and want to follow it.
Jeff Weaver
New Member
Looks like Bro. Glen, Robert & James have addressed the question pretty well.
FOr those who think it is odd, there are several groups of Baptists that don't use musical instruments:
Primitive Baptists
Old Regular Baptists
Union Baptists
Some United Baptists
Some Separate Baptists
Some Free Will Baptists
Some factions of Presbyterians also do not use musical instruments. The Eastern Orthodox don't use musical instruments. Some of the anabaptist groups don't use musical instruments. So the practice of not using musical instruments is far more wide-spread than most folks would believe.
Jeff.
FOr those who think it is odd, there are several groups of Baptists that don't use musical instruments:
Primitive Baptists
Old Regular Baptists
Union Baptists
Some United Baptists
Some Separate Baptists
Some Free Will Baptists
Some factions of Presbyterians also do not use musical instruments. The Eastern Orthodox don't use musical instruments. Some of the anabaptist groups don't use musical instruments. So the practice of not using musical instruments is far more wide-spread than most folks would believe.
Jeff.
Jeff Weaver
New Member
Here is a thread I knew was about somewhere.
DId the Early CHurch Use Musical Instruments.
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000171
Some interested in this thread, might want to read that one, perhaps revive it.
Jeff.
DId the Early CHurch Use Musical Instruments.
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000171
Some interested in this thread, might want to read that one, perhaps revive it.
Jeff.
In Wales, many church sat according to voice and not by family. Quite often the singing just broke out..one person would start and the rest join in,,no musical instrument.
I, however, grew up in Anglican circles, and we always had organs. My voice was so great, I got the job of pumping the organ (some of you might be old enough to remember pump organs). I also learned to play the pipe organ and love it.
Instruments are fine in church, but please no pagan drums. Also, I will take a male choir anyday. I don't particularly like the female voice...maybe growing up in a Boy's boarding school did it.
Cheers,
Jim
I, however, grew up in Anglican circles, and we always had organs. My voice was so great, I got the job of pumping the organ (some of you might be old enough to remember pump organs). I also learned to play the pipe organ and love it.
Instruments are fine in church, but please no pagan drums. Also, I will take a male choir anyday. I don't particularly like the female voice...maybe growing up in a Boy's boarding school did it.
Cheers,
Jim
Robert, these were pipe organs and the pump-bellows were controlled in a separate room on two pedals,,,,,the organist was in view by mirrors and he would give directions on when to start and stop pumping.
Smaller churches had the small bellows organs where the organist actually pumped the two pedals below the organ.
Cheers,
Jim
Smaller churches had the small bellows organs where the organist actually pumped the two pedals below the organ.
Cheers,
Jim
Well, I should have known that jolly ol' England would have one-upped us poor Southerners on this one! 
These organs were a one piece unit kind of like a large upright piano, with two pedals the organist had to pump while playing. Some churches in this area, if they didn't object to instruments and could afford them, used them long before pianos were in vogue.
These organs were a one piece unit kind of like a large upright piano, with two pedals the organist had to pump while playing. Some churches in this area, if they didn't object to instruments and could afford them, used them long before pianos were in vogue.Just had a little chuckle remembering when a Church of Christ pastor challenged my cousin Tom by asking, "Can you tell me where, in the New Testament the Bible says we should have musical instruments in our churches?" Without blinking, Tom replied, "I think it's in the same verse where it says we can have electrin lights, gas heat, indoor plumbing and church busses."
Thank God for His musicians!
Thank God for His musicians!
Bro. James Reed
New Member
I am surprised that a pastor, even Church of Christ, wouldn't have an explanation as to why they (we) don't use instruments. Sounds like he needs to do some studying.
I Am Blessed 24
Active Member
TheOliveBranch
New Member
I know the Jews don't use musical instruments at their services, and they don't allow the women to sing, either. Do the women sing in Primitive Baptist Churches?
I find the lack of musical instruments a bit bothering, but I do love the sound of a capella. I don't like electronic music, and dislike the use of an organ as an accompaniment.
I find the lack of musical instruments a bit bothering, but I do love the sound of a capella. I don't like electronic music, and dislike the use of an organ as an accompaniment.
Yes, they sing. (Jumping in here in the absence of the Primitive brethren.)
Here are some audio clips:
http://www.oldunionpbc.org/audio.shtml
Bro. Jeff is a collector of Primitive hymns:
http://members.aol.com/jweaver303/hymn/index.htm
And rlvaughn has quite a selection of old hymnals.
While I am not convinced that the lack of musical instruments is required, it deserves more thought than comparing a piano to a light bulb. There is evidence that a capella was the method of the early church for a very long time. The Orthodox still don't have instruments.
[ February 22, 2003, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]
Here are some audio clips:
http://www.oldunionpbc.org/audio.shtml
Bro. Jeff is a collector of Primitive hymns:
http://members.aol.com/jweaver303/hymn/index.htm
And rlvaughn has quite a selection of old hymnals.
While I am not convinced that the lack of musical instruments is required, it deserves more thought than comparing a piano to a light bulb. There is evidence that a capella was the method of the early church for a very long time. The Orthodox still don't have instruments.
[ February 22, 2003, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]
Jeff Weaver
New Member
Yes, women sing in Primitive Baptist churches. Children, old men, young men, everyone, rarely will someone not sing, even though they aren't capable of carrying a tune in a bucket. Women even pick out some of the songs, Children pick out some, men, who ever wants one just calls out the number. The pastor will announce the number in the order he hears them, the song leader will raise the hymn, someone will line it out, and everyone sings. We here don't have one set song-leader, some folks are better at raising one hymn, while someone else might be better at another.
BTW, just got back from meeting, and we sang some, prayed some, preached some, fellowshiped some, and then went home.
Jeff.
BTW, just got back from meeting, and we sang some, prayed some, preached some, fellowshiped some, and then went home.
Jeff.
TheOliveBranch
New Member
I don't think it is wrong not to have instruments, I just can't say they shouldn't be used.
Thanks, Stephen. This seems to be a very fine point that is lost on most people. Those who believe that New Testament practice is normative rarely ever mean that adopting purely cultural practices is required. But we likewise should not dismiss out of hand any practice of the New Testament church. It should be studied to see if it were merely an accomodation, or if it might have some theological and practical significance. The fact that they didn't use light bulbs, since light bulbs didn't exist, is not likely to mean anything. But the fact that they did not use musical instruments, since instruments did exist and were a part of the surrounding religious culture, could possibly be significant. This in itself does not make the case for not using instruments. It does, however, make the case that an honest consideration of the issue is more important than simply dismissing it with a joke.
MissAbbyIFBaptist
<img src=/3374.jpg>
I don't guess it matters too much. The Lord gave me the gift to sing and He also gave me the ability to play piano. Even though I can't read music at all. Have no idea what sahped or round notes mean. I hear a song, and then I pick around untill I find the notes. Then I add the chords. I can tell you if you're singing off pitch, and if I hit a wrong key on the piano. Yet, I'm note illeterate!
I love to hear someone play piano or organ, but a lot of the songs that I do on Sunday night as specials, I often do a capella. I just love good, God-praising songs. With or without an instrament. I don't see anything wrong with singing to an instament, but I'm also like Jim. NO DRUMS, I BEG YOU!
But the preaching is the best part of the service. The singing can be an encouragement, or it can make you wish that the singing was after the preaching!
God uses preaching first and foremost. I can't think of the verse but it talks about the "foolishness of preaching.." and that still convicts, and gets souls saved.
I've not seen anything in the New Testement that forbids instruments. There is also nothing in the NT that says we are to have Two services on Sunday and one on Wenesday. Or a special time for communion or business meetings. {at least I don't think so. If I'm wrong, correct me, but give cahpter and verse.}
In the Old Testement, in Psalms it gives many verses about praiseing God with instuments. {Psaltry, organ, sackbut, ect.}
But I figure as long as the church is teaching correct doctrine, then the things like this don't matter that much. I clicked the link to the singing someone posted, and thought it was beautiful. Yet I also get the same blessing when my friend Nicole plays piano, and she and I sing.
I guess it's just your opinion and what you are used to.
~Abby
I love to hear someone play piano or organ, but a lot of the songs that I do on Sunday night as specials, I often do a capella. I just love good, God-praising songs. With or without an instrament. I don't see anything wrong with singing to an instament, but I'm also like Jim. NO DRUMS, I BEG YOU!
But the preaching is the best part of the service. The singing can be an encouragement, or it can make you wish that the singing was after the preaching!
I've not seen anything in the New Testement that forbids instruments. There is also nothing in the NT that says we are to have Two services on Sunday and one on Wenesday. Or a special time for communion or business meetings. {at least I don't think so. If I'm wrong, correct me, but give cahpter and verse.}
In the Old Testement, in Psalms it gives many verses about praiseing God with instuments. {Psaltry, organ, sackbut, ect.}
But I figure as long as the church is teaching correct doctrine, then the things like this don't matter that much. I clicked the link to the singing someone posted, and thought it was beautiful. Yet I also get the same blessing when my friend Nicole plays piano, and she and I sing.
I guess it's just your opinion and what you are used to.
~Abby
If someone wants to get a feel for the sound of Sacred Harp singing, click on the Old Union Primitive Baptist link that rsr posted above and listen to the Thursday night singing (or probably most any of the singing). Most of the tunes are also found in The Sacred Harp (Sweet Hour of Prayer isn't) and are "performed" almost exactly the same as Sacred Harp by this group of Primitive Baptists. In fact, there are at least four Sacred Harp singers in the picture on the meetings page. About the only difference would be that you need to imagine the group singing through the syllables of the notes (fa,sol,la) before they sing through the words, and also that at most Sacred Harp singings there will be a higher percentage of minor modes than at this Primitive Baptist meeting (about 65% major - 35% minor). I like taking almost twice as long to sing through most of the songs (slo-o-ow them down). Be sure and listen till you get to "Homeward Bound," which is a beautiful Alabama Christian Harmony song - a book closely related to the Sacred Harp.
Concerning music among Primitive Baptists, the Old Union meeting represents only one genre - the southern folk music of the singing school tradition. Many of the east coast and some deep south churches will sing much slower in unison and usually with "lining" each verse of the hymn - the old way of singing. Perhaps the largest genre now is the "Old School Hymnal" variety, which adds many more hymns from the 20th century and also from the Mason/Hastings school of musical thought, and rearranges many of the parts to close, as opposed to dispersed, harmony.
[edited to add - the book used at Old Union in Arkansas is The Good Old Songs, compiled by Elder C. H. Cayce. It comes from the same folk song tradition as The Sacred Harp, but was specifically compiled for use in Primitive Baptist Churches]
[ February 23, 2003, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
Concerning music among Primitive Baptists, the Old Union meeting represents only one genre - the southern folk music of the singing school tradition. Many of the east coast and some deep south churches will sing much slower in unison and usually with "lining" each verse of the hymn - the old way of singing. Perhaps the largest genre now is the "Old School Hymnal" variety, which adds many more hymns from the 20th century and also from the Mason/Hastings school of musical thought, and rearranges many of the parts to close, as opposed to dispersed, harmony.
[edited to add - the book used at Old Union in Arkansas is The Good Old Songs, compiled by Elder C. H. Cayce. It comes from the same folk song tradition as The Sacred Harp, but was specifically compiled for use in Primitive Baptist Churches]
[ February 23, 2003, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
I have sung in a choir with a piano and an enormous pipe organ. I love organs -- good ones that shake your bones on the bass notes. I love the piano. I love clarinets and trumpets and oboes, and my favorite piece of music is "Messiah," which has violins, harpsichord, etc. In fact, I have never been in a church that did not use instruments, and my daughter played in the church orchestra.
All I'm saying is that what we've grown to be accustomed to is not necessarily scriptural -- I'm not saying it isn't, but I'm leaving the question open.
Is it important? In the great sweep of things, much less important perhaps than many questions. But those who hold that view don't deserve derision.
All I'm saying is that what we've grown to be accustomed to is not necessarily scriptural -- I'm not saying it isn't, but I'm leaving the question open.
Is it important? In the great sweep of things, much less important perhaps than many questions. But those who hold that view don't deserve derision.
God is the author of the Bible, is He not?
The very word Psalm means a song or poem sung to the accompiment of a musical instrument.
God is the author, the songwriter, of 150 songs and these songs used musical insturments to accompany them. Now you tell me that it is wrong to endulge in a God given activity because He didn't specifically tell you to do so in the New Testament. It is completely acceptable to me if you don't want to use musical instruments, don't use them. That is your choice and I am happy for you. You should also not use shaped notes, round notes, pitch pipes, glass in your windows, carpet, pulpits, pews, songbooks printed by a printing press, printed bulletins, electricity, baptistries, English Bibles, Sunday School material, ink pens, pencils, crayons, walls, roofs, floors, doorknobs, tenors, bass, alto, or suprano singers, eyeglasses, hearing aids, pacemakers, services during summer, winter, fall, or spring, services at 7:00, 8:00, 9:00, etc., I could go on and on. about what the Bible doesn't say. It doesn't say how many songs to sing and when to sing them, so no matter what you do you will be doing something the Bible didn't specifically tell you to do in a New Testament church service.
No, the Bible doesn't specifically tell us to use musical instruments during our worship services, but it also doesn't speciafically tell us many things. We have to use common sense and decide what the Bible teaches us about worshiping God. What would be appropriate and what would not. Musicial instruments COULD certainly be used inappropriately, but, they could also be used VERY appropriately. That is why God gave us the Holy Spirit to teach us such things.
Psalm 150 - In the sanctuary
1Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power. 2Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness. 3Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp. 4Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. 5Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals. 6Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.
At a funeral.
Matt 9:23 And when Jesus came into the ruler’s house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise, 24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth.
In general, anywhere, could be in church.
Eph 5:19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;
Sounds like a church service to me.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
It's in heaven, is your church service holier than heaven?
Rev 5:8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they *sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
I am not saying you are wrong to NOT use musical instruments, I am saying you are wrong to say that it IS wrong to use musical instruments.
The very word Psalm means a song or poem sung to the accompiment of a musical instrument.
God is the author, the songwriter, of 150 songs and these songs used musical insturments to accompany them. Now you tell me that it is wrong to endulge in a God given activity because He didn't specifically tell you to do so in the New Testament. It is completely acceptable to me if you don't want to use musical instruments, don't use them. That is your choice and I am happy for you. You should also not use shaped notes, round notes, pitch pipes, glass in your windows, carpet, pulpits, pews, songbooks printed by a printing press, printed bulletins, electricity, baptistries, English Bibles, Sunday School material, ink pens, pencils, crayons, walls, roofs, floors, doorknobs, tenors, bass, alto, or suprano singers, eyeglasses, hearing aids, pacemakers, services during summer, winter, fall, or spring, services at 7:00, 8:00, 9:00, etc., I could go on and on. about what the Bible doesn't say. It doesn't say how many songs to sing and when to sing them, so no matter what you do you will be doing something the Bible didn't specifically tell you to do in a New Testament church service.
No, the Bible doesn't specifically tell us to use musical instruments during our worship services, but it also doesn't speciafically tell us many things. We have to use common sense and decide what the Bible teaches us about worshiping God. What would be appropriate and what would not. Musicial instruments COULD certainly be used inappropriately, but, they could also be used VERY appropriately. That is why God gave us the Holy Spirit to teach us such things.
Psalm 150 - In the sanctuary
1Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power. 2Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness. 3Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp. 4Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. 5Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals. 6Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.
At a funeral.
Matt 9:23 And when Jesus came into the ruler’s house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise, 24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth.
In general, anywhere, could be in church.
Eph 5:19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;
Sounds like a church service to me.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
It's in heaven, is your church service holier than heaven?
Rev 5:8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they *sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
I am not saying you are wrong to NOT use musical instruments, I am saying you are wrong to say that it IS wrong to use musical instruments.