Muslim have dreams about Christ

[The American Dream]

I disagree. It is my position that passage is talking about the return of Christ. The reason for this is verses 9-12. We do have the word but we do not see yet in the manner described in those verse. That will only occur when Christ returns.

How do you square that Hebrews says the Bible is the final and complete revelation from God and the gifts the charismatics are claiming such as a word of knowledge or a word of faith, or a message in tongues that adds a revelation about the Lord? How do you account for the fact that there is not one documented case since the apostolic era? I can respect your position on verses 9-12. You will find I disagree but do so in a manner that focuses on the issue, not the person.

 

[Revmitchell]

How do you square that Hebrews says the Bible is the final and complete revelation from God and the gifts the charismatics are claiming such as a word of knowledge or a word of faith, or a message in tongues that adds a revelation about the Lord? How do you account for the fact that there is not one documented case since the apostolic era? I can respect your position on verses 9-12. You will find I disagree but do so in a manner that focuses on the issue, not the person.

OK don't assume I support the charismatics. I do not. Just because I do not believe that the Bible claims they are ceased at this time does not mean I have to support the charismatic movement. Ultimately the charismatics claim things the Bible never has supported and distort the rest.

If there is going to be a supernatural occurrence it needs to line up with scripture. Talking in tongues for personal reasons never meets that standard. Having faith in faith never meets that standard. Slain in the Spirit, holy laughter etc are all abominations to God. It is a false worship and has no godly place in a Christian's life.

While I disagree with the charismatic movement the arguments made against them by some are often just as wrong. We Christians often make the wrong arguments in order to defend against other wrong doctrine. If someone makes a claim about a "mystical" event we need only look to scripture to see if the event being claimed meets the nature (ie purpose and manner) of that event. What the charismatics do is take the name of a certain gift and make their own standard (ie a purpose and manner not in scripture) and claim that we need not put God in a box. In other words do not hold them to scripture.

Some may want to call it a box, but what it really is, is the standard layed out in scripture. If that is in fact a so called "box" then in the box it belongs.

 

[The American Dream]

OK don't assume I support the charismatics. I do not. Just because I do not believe that the Bible claims they are ceased at this time does not mean I have to support the charismatic movement. Ultimately the charismatics claim things the Bible never has supported and distort the rest.

If there is going to be a supernatural occurrence it needs to line up with scripture. Talking in tongues for personal reasons never meets that standard. Having faith in faith never meets that standard. Slain in the Spirit, holy laughter etc are all abominations to God. It is a false worship and has no godly place in a Christian's life.

While I disagree with the charismatic movement the arguments made against them by some are often just as wrong. We Christians often make the wrong arguments in order to defend against other wrong doctrine. If someone makes a claim about a "mystical" event we need only look to scripture to see if the event being claimed meets the nature (ie purpose and manner) of that event. What the charismatics do is take the name of a certain gift and make their own standard (ie a purpose and manner not in scripture) and claim that we need not put God in a box. In other words do not hold them to scripture.

Some may want to call it a box, but what it really is, is the standard layed out in scripture. If that is in fact a so called "box" then in the box it belongs.

Good post, Rev......

 

[JonC]

How do you square that Hebrews says the Bible is the final and complete revelation from God

My apologies for the interruption, but I’ve gotta ask.

If Hebrews says that the Bible is the final and complete revelation from God then what do we make of the epistles written decades after Hebrews was completed (e.g., the epistles of John, Revelation) ? Was the canon (the complying of these accounts and epistles) divinely inspired long after the contents of the New Testament were authored or was the compilation a product of man?

The reason I ask is not that I support the charismatic movement (I don’t), but that I don’t really understand the logic of your argument.

 

[MB]

Let me define free will for you per theopedia...





Now, here's theopedia's definition of synergism...





In your and your fellow non-Cal's view, God can not save you until you choose to. If someone dies lost, it was because God tried and they chose to die that way. God couldn't save them because they failed to submit. Thereby, your view impugns the sovereignity of God...

No matter what Calvinist argue or for that matter what freewillers argue. The truth is Christians all believe in Christ because of what He has done for us all. According to God's Word and according to Freewillers and Calvinist. If we believe we are saved. No matter the how to's.
This argument I have come to realize is Satan's wedge he places between men to keep them from loving each other. My proof is the way men treat each other when they argue the hows which really are meaningless.
MB

 

[Baptist Believer]

Why would you say [my ludicrous comparison between Mormonism and Muslims having dreams about Jesus that lead to Christian conversion] it is not valid?

1.) We are talking about dreams, not a full blown extra-biblical Incarnation of Jesus who lived and taught among a people like the Mormons teach.
2.) There is substantial biblical precedent for God speaking to people outside of scripture - even people coming to faith because of that process. I've already given you the classic case of Abraham that Paul uses to demonstrate that God works with people outside of scripture and religious tradition. Do you not have Genesis 15, Galatians 3 and Romans 4 in your Bible?
3.) Mormon teaching radically contradicts scripture and leads to people becoming Mormon (if they don't see through the lies). Dreams about Jesus among Muslims lead to people becoming Christians.

I could go on, but I think I have made the point.

Several Mormons say they also were given a burning in their bosom to confirm it was all true. Do you doubt this?

I wonder if you really know anything about Mormonism. ALL Mormons are supposed to experience this "burning in the bosom" as evidence that Joseph Smith, Jr. was a prophet of God.

I don't doubt that people feel things, but I have all kinds of bodily feelings throughout my life. It is not basis for believing something is true or false

On what basis do you doubt this as you suggest the very same thing?

There is a huge difference between heartburn and a coherent dream. We are not a culture that values spiritual dreams, so most people tend to think of dreams in Freudian terms. Therefore, I suspect that God does not attempt to speak to most of us in dreams. Just because our culture is different from the Muslim cultures in which there dreams are occurring doesn't mean we should dismiss experiences which are meaningful and productive in that culture.

What if Mormon missionaries roll this video instead??? [warning 2nd commandment violation depicted}

Beyond the foolish portrayal of Jesus as a white man, what they are depicted is not a dream.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meld4HYgJEM

Yes, I know quite a bit about Mormons having studied their faith by talking at length with Mormon missionaries over the course of months and taking them through the Christian scriptures to demonstrate that their organization is in extreme error. The missionaries were banned from speaking to me ever again after I showed them that Joseph's Smith's claim (and the claim of the Mormon organization) that the gospel had to be restored upon the earth was completely false based on the Bible, common sense, and even a passage in the Book of Mormon (allegedly "the most perfect book" upon the earth) that clearly teaches the Apostle John and "three Nephites" would not die but continue teaching the gospel after Christ had gone away until Christ returns again (3 Nephi 28). Either "Jesus" in the Book of Mormon is wrong, Joseph Smith, Jr.'s vision is wrong (although there are at least three contradictory versions of the event), or both the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith, Jr. are wrong (frauds).

Sorry about the digression, but any sort of claim that Muslims having dreams about Christ that eventually lead to conversion to faith in Christ is the same thing as the Mormon experience is either and expression of sheer ignorance or a rhetorical diversion.

May we deal with real issues now?

 

[The American Dream]

My apologies for the interruption, but I’ve gotta ask.

If Hebrews says that the Bible is the final and complete revelation from God then what do we make of the epistles written decades after Hebrews was completed (e.g., the epistles of John, Revelation) ? Was the canon (the complying of these accounts and epistles) divinely inspired long after the contents of the New Testament were authored or was the compilation a product of man?

The reason I ask is not that I support the charismatic movement (I don’t), but that I don’t really understand the logic of your argument.

Good question....I think when Hebrews says final revelation, it is talking about Jesus Christ, the Son of God. He is God and His work on the cross is the final revelation. Yes some books were written after Hebrews, but it is not about the books, it is about Jesus Christ. The later books to not contradict anything about Christ. Hebrews only states that there will be no more revelations of God after Christ. We do not know who wrote Hebrews but the two date ranges accepted are 62-64 or 82-84. The latter would be ten years before Revelation. Here is a short study better than I could ever do by Gary Lashmutt.

Jesus Is God's Full & Final Revelation

Hebrews 1:1-2:4


We don't know who the author is, but we can be fairly certain that Paul was involved. 13:23 indicates that the author knew Timothy, one of Paul's protégés. The theological concepts and terminology are also Pauline.

The audience is Jews who have professed belief in Jesus as the Messiah. But they are struggling with the temptation to reject this profession and return to the practice of ritual Judaism. Why? In order to avoid persecution. Rome was persecuting Christians at this time, but they afforded Judaism a "protected religion" status. After all, since Christianity is rooted in O.T. Judaism, how could this hurt?


Those of us who are Christians find ourselves in a slightly different, but similar situation today. Our founding fathers rightly insisted that there should be freedom of religion - the right to hold one's own beliefs about God, etc. without fear of persecution. But we have moved far past that today, to the place where all religions are viewed as equally true. We live in a culture which is profoundly relativistic concerning religious truth. Our culture has mistakenly applied Einstein's theory of relativity (which is true with regard to physics) to the realm of spiritual truth. The result is an ironic intolerance: to hold any other position than that all religions (however contradictory or lacking in evidence) are equally valid, that all roads lead ultimately to God, etc. is to be branded an uninformed, arrogant, close-minded, self-righteous bigot.


In such a culture, Christians are under strong pressure to compromise the uniqueness of Christianity's claim to be the truth. Can't we free ourselves of unwanted flak - and remove unneeded barriers to other people by agreeing that Christianity is just one way among many? Many so-called Christian "scholars" have concluded just this. Listen to Hans Kung: "A man is to be saved within the religion that is made available to him in his historical situation. Hence it is his right and duty to seek God within that religion in which the hidden God has already found him...The religions (of the world) are the way of salvation...for the people of the world's religions...the ordinary way of salvation..."

It is this mentality that the author of Hebrews sets out to refute. He argues that this is wrong because Christianity is better than Judaism ("BETTER THAN" 13 TIMES). Jesus has fulfilled the Old Testament way of approaching God and thus superseded it and rendered it obsolete. To revert to Judaism is to reject Jesus. Instead of going backward spiritually by practicing Judaism, they need to move forward by following Jesus. And this is even more so with regard to other religions.

Jesus is greater than the old testament prophets (1:1-3)


Read vs 1,2a. In one sentence, the author defines the relationship between the Old Testament & Jesus. Over a period of 1000 years, God spoke truly & accurately through an unbroken succession of prophets. He revealed himself and his plan for mankind through many means (dreams, visions, voices, writing, etc.). This gradually growing body of revelation, though true, was by definition incomplete (PREDICTED COMING ONE; FORETOLD A FUTURE SALVATION). But God has spoken his final & complete Word through Jesus. The author emphasizes this point in two ways:


"...at the end of these days" means that the period of partial revelation has come to an end with the coming of Jesus ("in his Son").

"...has spoken..." emphasizes the once-for-allness of God's revelation through Jesus.

Just as the light of the MOON is superseded by the rise of the SUN, so the revelation about God from the Old Testament has been superseded by the coming of Jesus.

The reason the revelation given through Jesus is better than that given through the prophets is that Jesus is superior to them. They were God's fallen human spokesmen; Jesus is God's unique Son. In vs 2b,3, the author gives five unique characteristics of Jesus which set him infinitely above any Old Testament prophet.


He is the world's rightful ruler (HEIR). This is the meaning of "messiah" - God's selected ruler.

He is the agent of the world's creation (MADE THE WORLD).

He is the perfect manifestation of God (RADIANCE OF GLORY & EXACT REPRESENTATION OF NATURE) - see Jn. 14:9; 1:18.

He is the sustainer of the world and the prime mover of history (UPHOLDS ALL THINGS).

He is the provider of complete forgiveness (MADE PURIFICATION & SAT DOWN).

Of course, the author is assuming his audience believes that the Old Testament is inspired revelation from God. Their problem was understanding the relationship between that revelation and Jesus. I realize I cannot make the same assumption with many of you. If you doubt/have problems with this, let me challenge you to consider two things:


If a personal God exists, it is reasonable that he would be both willing and able to communicate about himself and his purpose for our lives in a way that would understandable and enduring (i.e., written). This is exactly what the Bible claims to be.

The evidence for the Old Testament's claim is vastly superior to any other "scripture." Only it anticipates our need for objective evidence and supplies it through fulfilled historical prophecy (recount Deut. 18 & recommend DENNIS' BOOK - free to first-timers). We'll examine a certain class of these predictions in our study of Hebrews.

 

[Iconoclast]

Baptist Believer

2.) There is substantial biblical precedent for God speaking to people outside of scripture -
even people coming to faith because of that Christians.

I could go on, but I think I have made the point.

Could you give an example of this after the scriptures said not to add or take away from it? I will answer in full in a little bit.

 

[Iconoclast]

Baptist Believer

Could you show where Iconoclast originally posted this???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
[my ludicrous comparison between Mormonism and Muslims having dreams about Jesus that lead to Christian conversion]

 

[The American Dream]

God does not speak outside of Scripture except to believers through His Holy Spirit. Christ does not come back to join with the elements of communion. Christ did not make a trip to South America. Mary does not appear every other decade, and if she did, what difference would it make? Everyone wants a sign. Everyone wants to see some kind of supernatural event. Supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit has ceased. There is not legitimate case documented that shows the gift of tongues or the interpretation of tongues, healing by individuals, prophecy, miracles by individuals, raising someone from the dead, and there is no such thing as a word knowledge or faith. This is the basis of all the charismatic cults. God does not speak through priests or the Pope, that is called the RCC cult. God does not speak through the Book of Mormon. That is called the LDS cult. God does not jump into the baptismal water and quicken a person being baptized. That is called the CoC cult. God speaks through Scripture and His Son Jesus Christ, its that simple.

 

[Iconoclast]

Baptist Believer

Your comparison with Mormonism is invalid. What Mormons claim and what we are talking about are two completely different things.

Both groups claim some special visitation or message.

No one is adding or taking away from scripture.

Any new manifestation would be adding to what has been given.

Those who advocate the position you oppose are using scripture to demonstrate the possibility of Jesus and the Spirit working outside the bounds of human agency and the express witness of the scripture.

No where can they go to show any such expectation of special revelation.
You and other like to make such claims or support any such ideas,as you believe sign gifts are still happening

No one has said this. Why don't you stick to the issue without trying to tar your opponents with falsehoods.

I have spoken to the issue. It was you who inserted words into my post.

 

[convicted1]

Convicted,

I am on the same page as the Rev. I honestly and intellectually hold to the "free will" of mankind, particularly with regard to salvation and his distinction between what God can or cannot do vs. the way He has "decided" that it will be done. I proudly (not arrogantly) claim the title of synergism, truly I cannot understand how anyone could be anything but a synergist.

Brother Dave,

I honestly did not mean to insult you, and if I did, please accept my sincerest apology.

It's just that Romans 1:16, 1 Cor. 1:21, Eph. 1:13, 1 Cor. 15:10,11 and even Acts 4:12 proclaim the gospel as the only vehicle whereby salvation travels. I am hardpressed to believe dreams are also a vehicle whereby Christ is revealed. I think the Acts 2 passage isn't being exegeted properly, myself.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Could you show where Iconoclast originally posted this???

You wrote, "Why would you say it is not valid."

In order to give context to your question, I needed to add some clarification. That's why I added the brackets to be honest that you had not actually said these words in this order, but it was within the context of our discussion.

What I should have written was:

"Why would you say [my comparison between Mormonism and Muslims having dreams about Jesus that lead to Christian conversion] it is not valid?"

Unfortunately, I added the word "ludicrous" because that is what I think about your argument. However, I had no right to put that word into the context of what you allegedly wrote.

I was wrong to do it and I have wronged you. I am sincerely sorry.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Could you give an example of this after the scriptures said not to add or take away from it? I will answer in full in a little bit.

The Book of Revelation warns not to add or take away from that book. I don't really think it apples to all of scripture since the Gospel of John was likely written AFTER the Book of Revelation.

Moreover, we are not talking about "adding" to scripture at all!

We are talking about a God who is alive and active speaking to humankind. The scriptures themselves testify about that throughout the pages. Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit will guide His people. Why make the assumption that God has stopped speaking?

 

[Revmitchell]

The gospel and dreams or visions are not contrary to one another. In fact they cannot be compared. One is the purpose (the gospel) the other is the vehicle (ie preaching or dreams and visions). Trying to set them up as somehow contradictory to each other is contrary to scripture.

 

[Baptist Believer]

[In my comparison between Mormonism and Muslims having dreams which result in conversion to Christ, both] groups claim some special visitation or message.

Well the primary way we know the truth of the matter is that Mormonism leads to things that contradict the scripture and the experience of Muslims (and many other people - including people her in the U.S.) leads people to the faith in Christ described in the scriptures.

[In response to my assertion that no one is adding or taking away from scripture, you wrote 'Any new manifestation would be adding to what has been given.'

This does not logically follow. An experience is not scripture. No one is taking the stories of these experiences and adding them to scripture. We are not adding anything to the canon.

I wrote: Those who advocate the position you oppose are using scripture to demonstrate the possibility of Jesus and the Spirit working outside the bounds of human agency and the express witness of the scripture.

You responded:

No where can they go to show any such expectation of special revelation.

That's nonsense. If God cares for humankind, God is going to reveal Himself to people in many ways. One of them is through what has been created. Another is through scripture and persons who already know God. But none of this happens unless the sovereign God draws them (John 6:44). If the one whom God draws is receptive to God's contact with them, then God will bring them more 'light' through scripture, a person or persons, a dream, or some other means. Your view seems to be making God's will and action subordinate to the availability of scripture. If that is the case, then we would be better off without scripture because it becomes a barrier to the grace of God for those who do not have access to it. Since you are so fond of talking about Mormon claims, your view completely condemns to eternal death all of those who lived in the Americas before the first Christian witnesses arrive in the 15th century. While the Mormons are obviously wrong, reactions to your view was one of the motivations behind the creation of the Book of Mormon.

You and other like to make such claims or support any such ideas,as you believe sign gifts are still happening

I believe sign gifts are happening because the scripture appears to teach that they will continue. I have heard and studied the cessationist arguments for years, but they are poorly constructed and do not hold up to scrutiny. Moreover, I have experience some of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit in ministry.

It was you who inserted words into my post.

I am guilty of inserting the word "ludicrous" in a contest-providing bracket, and that was wrong and I have publicly apologized. I am not twisting your words.

 

[Baptist Believer]

The gospel and dreams or visions are not contrary to one another. In fact they cannot be compared. One is the purpose (the gospel) the other is the vehicle (ie preaching or dreams and visions). Trying to set them up as somehow contradictory to each other is contrary to scripture.

Yes, exactly.

Excellent post! :thumbs:

 

[webdog]

God does not speak outside of Scripture except to believers through His Holy Spirit. Christ does not come back to join with the elements of communion. Christ did not make a trip to South America. Mary does not appear every other decade, and if she did, what difference would it make? Everyone wants a sign. Everyone wants to see some kind of supernatural event. Supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit has ceased. There is not legitimate case documented that shows the gift of tongues or the interpretation of tongues, healing by individuals, prophecy, miracles by individuals, raising someone from the dead, and there is no such thing as a word knowledge or faith. This is the basis of all the charismatic cults. God does not speak through priests or the Pope, that is called the RCC cult. God does not speak through the Book of Mormon. That is called the LDS cult. God does not jump into the baptismal water and quicken a person being baptized. That is called the CoC cult. God speaks through Scripture and His Son Jesus Christ, its that simple.

Nice to see you are God's spokesman dictating what He can and cannot do.

 

[quantumfaith]

Brother Dave,

I honestly did not mean to insult you, and if I did, please accept my sincerest apology.

It's just that Romans 1:16, 1 Cor. 1:21, Eph. 1:13, 1 Cor. 15:10,11 and even Acts 4:12 proclaim the gospel as the only vehicle whereby salvation travels. I am hardpressed to believe dreams are also a vehicle whereby Christ is revealed. I think the Acts 2 passage isn't being exegeted properly, myself.

You didn't offend me in the slightest. I am just one of those "freewillers" getting in my two cents. You could not offend me, as I have known you over a good bit of time. We simply view soteriological matters from different perspectives.

 

[convicted1]

You didn't offend me in the slightest. I am just one of those "freewillers" getting in my two cents. You could not offend me, as I have known you over a good bit of time. We simply view soteriological matters from different perspectives.

:love2: :wavey: :flower: :1_grouphug: