Muslims Celebrate 911

Your husband is a smart man.

 

Vera,

Again thank you for claiming Jesus as your Savior.

For the record,

I am sorry that you lost your job.

I do not like the President's economic record. But, blaming him for what previous presidents and senates and congresses approved is a bit harsh.

The terrorists attacking the WTC accelerated what was already in progress - globalization. We have been headed that way at least since the Nixon era. IMHO.

 

Moderator Note: I have deleted several posts that were not on topic and hijacked this thread, i.e., personal marriage/employment issues and President Bush. Please stay on topic.

Lady Eagle,
Moderator

 

Sorry for drudging up a month old thread, but I felt that there were a lot things left unsaid on this topic.

I think it is important for us to understand that Islam really is, in general, a peaceful religion. Such understanding is essential in order to protect the future rights of Muslims.

A couple things I wanted to say is that Muslims do not make up a majority of terrorists worldwide. Those polls/ websites are scewed. There are many many other Terrorist organizations and much more violent ones than the ones we see in the Middle East.

I also wanted to adress a piece of scripture from the Qur'an that was posted on page two. Sura 9:5 was written right after the Hijra and is not a general commandment for Muslims to kill all non-believers, it refers specifically to the Pagan armies of Mecca. Notice how the verse tells them to use surprise attacks and sneak attacks, this was because the Meccan armies very much so outnumbered the umma at this time. In short saying that such scripture requires Muslims to kill non-believers would be a very innacurate statement and very historically inconsistant sense the early Arab empire was very religiously pluralistic.

 

Outstanding. I'm pretty sure the USA staged all 5,805 attacks to date, and then blamed the Muslims. Of course, I could be schizophrenic........... and BTW Ken, those weren't Christian crusaders, those were Catholics. Roman Catholicism bears no resemblance to New Testament Christianity.

 

To be fair though radical islam and Qutbism bears just as little in common with main-stream Islamic thought.

 

To be fair, that is only if you are a muslim apologist defending islam against the Truth . . .

They murdered hundreds of thousands of Christians when they conquered most of the known world and forced people at the point of the sword to submit to islam.

They have killed millions of Christians in Africa in the last 40 years.

They blew up the WTC . . .

They have blown up at least 20 targets in the last decade in the name of terrorism.

And I still do not see the 'peaceful' in the streets protesting all of the murder.

Not to discount the burden the African-American had in the USA in 1960, but we had Christians protesting the hate groups that claimed Jesus as their fake little god - and there were hundreds to thousands of African-Americans killed by those evil men and women.

There have been several thousand fold that number atrocities committed by muslims (if not million fold) and THERE ARE NO PEACEFUL DEMONSTRATIONS AGAINST THEIR EVIL.

And all of that anger they have shown does not include what they have done to non-Christians. Imagine their kindness to 'people of the Book' - we are not the only ones that they murder.

 

The early Arab Empire was religiously pluralistic. In fact large areas of it weren't even predominatly Muslim. Take Iraq for example, the largest religious group there were the Nestorian Christians who had been driven out of the eastern Roman empire due to religious persecution, the second largest religious group in the area were the Jews who also had fled Christian persecution in Europe. Non-Arabs weren't even allowed to convert to Islam. Their religious pluralism can be seen all over. They shared the church at Damascus with the christians each having their worhip in it on different days.

You are going to have to be a little more specific than that. Surely you aren't blaming Islam for the resource wars in the Congo, or the Sudanese civil war which just ended? Islam had nothing to do with the genocide in Rwanda or the civil war in Sierra Leone. There is some religious fighting in Nigeria, but attrocities are committed by both sides there, Muslim and Christian a like.

Yes, and I suppose you think that all 1.5 billion Muslims approve of such attacks.

Should I consider Christianity a religion of murder and hate because of the actions of Hitler? 11 million people killed in his genocide and all by a man who claimed to be Christian. Of course I shouldn't judge Christianity based off of his actions! I know enough to understand that his religious ideologies don't represent main stream Christian thought.

Should I consider Christianity a religion of terrorism because of the LRA, God's Army, the Nagaland rebels and the former IRA? Of course not, because I know enough about Christianity to be able to put such extremist groups into proper context, sadly though, it doesn't seem as if you know enough about Islam to do the same thing for them.

I don't see mass Christian protests against the LRA who has killed over 12,000 people and who fights in the name of Jesus and the Ten Commandments, nor do I see mass protests in the streets over the Nagaland Rebels who have slaughtered 11,000 people. Does that mean that Christians agree with their actions? Of course not! All you have to do is talk to them about it and you'll find out that they are very much against it. The same thing is true for Muslims and radical Islam.

Most Muslims don't even associate themselves with these radical groups. They disaprove of them, but they do not see them as "Muslim" groups, much in the same way that we don't view the LRA as a "Christian" group.

That being said there have been a lot of public outcry by the Muslim community condemning terrorist attacks and suicide bombings. Grand Sheikh Mohammed Sayed Tantawi of the Al-Azhar mosque of Cairo who is considered to be the highest authority of Sunni Islam said that those who carry out suicide bombings are to be considered enemies of Islam. Keep in mind that Sunnis make up roughly 80% of the Muslim world.

Many Muslims don't even view these groups as being Islamic. According to most forms of Islamic law waging war against a society is labeled as hirabah and is a very grievious crime. These radical groups also distinguish themselves from the rest of the Muslim world by practicing takfir which means that they consider anyone who does not think like them (Muslims included) are their enemy. It is against these radical groups that we should direct out hatred, not against Islam as a whole.

Yes there are. All you need to do is look for them.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

Now here I must admit that initially under the early Arabic empire there was some persecution of polytheists in India, but that didn't last very long. Yes Muslims view polytheism as evil, but that doesn't mean that they are required to kill Polytheists. After a brief period of persecution the Islamic umma demostrated very well that they could live in peace with them. Early Christianity is just as guilty of such religious persecution too though.

 

Intriguing.

What is your statement of faith?

 

I was raised presbyterian; however I no longer am a member of the church. I still maintain an active friendship with both the former and current ministers though. I really am up in the air in my beliefs at the moment taking some time to actively learn about different denominations and in depth Christian theology before I put a label to myself. In the end i'll probably remain non-denominational/agnostic. I am not Muslim, nor am I partial to Islam.

I am first an foremost a student of monotheistic theology. You can look at my profile if you wish. I labeled myself as non-denominational, but I am a regular attendant of many Christian churches. the most common one probably being Methodist.

 

I praise your search for the truth. There are so many that do not seek the truth.

However, I pray you can know Jesus as I know Him. Agnostic (without faith) is scary to me.


Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 5:8-10 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 10:9-10 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Romans 10:13-15 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"

 

Thank you.

It is scary to me too. Very much so.

I am very familiar with the book of Romans, I study Christian theology the most out of all religions. however, I do not wish to make a proclamation of faith until I figure out exactly what it is that I believe. I don't want to be a baptist or a methodist or even a Christian simply because I was raised as such or simply because it is the most acceptable thing to be in my society, I want to be a follower of religion because I really believe in that religion. In order to do so I need to be well educated in religious teachings of all major religions. And of all denominations within these religions. It is a large task, but I feel that I owe it to myself to put forth the effort. I do not wish to have blind faith.

 

Dylith,

Few of the smartest people in the world have read the Bible. I would suggest starting with the First Epistle of the Apostle John.

It is a short epistle. I then would suggest some passages from the Old Testament.

These passages were written centuries before Christ was born.

I will post some OT passages shortly.

 

Here are some old testament passages about the coming Christ.

Zechariah 12: 10

Michah 5: 2

Jeremiah 23:5-6

Isaiah 9:7

Isaiah 7:14

Hosea 11:1

Isaiah 40:3-5

Malachi 3: 1

Malachi 4:5-6

Isaiah 56:7

Jeremiah 7:11

Psalms 69:9

Deuteronomy 18:15

Isaiah 35:5-6

Isaiah 42:2-3

Isaiah 53:7

Isaiah 61:1-2

Isaiah 53:12

Isaiah 28:16

Psalms 118:22

 

Then I would suggest reading Mark. John is good as well.

It is amazing how many prophecies that were fulfilled by Jesus Christ.

 

Thanks. I have read and re-read the Bible several times. (have to compair the different translations)

The more I read it the deeper the message seems.

I am currently working my way through The Visionary Wisdom Texts and other Christian Apocrypha. There is a lot of material. I don't use extra biblical stuff to influence my interpretation of Christianity, but I do think it is important to study so that I can have a better knowledge of early Christian thought.

One of the reasons why I came to these forums was to discuss my religious theological ideas with a baptist community. Thanks for the list i'll re-read the passages that you've posted.

/edit Matthew is actually my favorite Gospel.

 

May the Lord bless and guide you in your studies. May you come to know Him and the gift He offers. You'll remain in our prayers while you study and perhaps this board can be of help for you.

 

Dylith,

I will go a step further, I pray that you will know the power of Jesus and of His resurrection and that you will become like Paul - except for his chains.

Never in the history of mankind have all the leaders of any major movement willingly given up their lives . . .

Nowhere else in history will you find so many leaders willing to die for what they believed. You will find throughout the pages of history men that are willing to kill for what they believed. You will find throughout history people that will even die in combat trying to convert others to their beliefs. But, you will not find the willing sacrifice that has accompanied Christianity.

If Christianity was not true and satan was not at war with Christ . . . people would not find the Gospel Truth offensive. And Christianity would have 'gone the way of the dinosaur'.