Muslims face a great test today.

[Ben W]

Muslims Face a Test Today

Irshad Manji

The London transit bombings happened on a Thursday. Islam's holiest day of the week is Friday. That's when the most important sermons -- known as khutbas -- are delivered in mosques everywhere.

And that's why Muslims everywhere face a test in the next several hours. Assuming we're serious that Islam means peace, we must demand that our Friday khutbas denounce the London terrorist explosions in unambiguous and unqualified terms.

Here's what I predict will happen instead. The preachers will express condolences for the victims and condemnations of the criminals. Then they'll add, "But Britain should have never invited this kind of response by joining America in the invasion of Iraq."

The trouble with this line of reasoning is that terrorists have never needed an Iraq debacle to justify their violent jihads. What exactly was the Iraq of 1993, when Islamic radicals tried to blow up the World Trade Center? Or of 2000, when the USS Cole was attacked? Hell, that assault took place after U.S. military intervention saved thousands of Muslims in Bosnia.

If staying out of Iraq protected anyone from terrorism, then why did "insurgents" last year kidnap two journalists from France -- the most anti-war, anti-Bush nation in the West? Even overt solidarity with the people of Iraq, demonstrated by CARE's top relief worker in the area, Margaret Hassan, didn't shield her from assassination.

These are the facts that ordinary Muslims must take to their preachers at Friday's sermons. A clear repudiation of the London bombings will not bring back the dead. What it can do is help the rest of the world differentiate between the moderates and the apologists.

In Britain, a bill to outlaw strong criticism of Islam awaits final approval in Parliament. Mainstream Muslims crusaded for it, arguing that they're being terrorized by racists. Today, many of their neighbors have the fear of a capricious God, thanks to Islamic fanatics.

What will Muslims do?

http://snipurl.com/gded

 

[emeraldctyangel]

My guess would be to continue on this path until they all cease to exist. I have no personal hope for anyone who follows this doctrine. I continue to pray for them, but I feel like I am spitting in the wind.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I would agree that extremist Muslims will do so. I don't, however, agree that all Muslims are extremists. Irshad Manji would be a good example of a moderate Muslim who advocates a peaceful understanding of her religion, human rights, pluralism, and democracy.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[av1611jim]

Like the Catholic church, the Muslims will spew "moderation" until they have control of a given country's politics then it is "hell to pay" for anyone who opposes them.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

The only problem with your hypothesis there, Jim, is that Irshad stood against the ideology of hate when a student at a madrassa in her home country, when the Imam kicked her out of the school for challenging his hatred against the Jews openly and in front of the entire class. That is not the sign of someone who is playing games, only to change when the extremists are in charge. She has also had fatwas put on her head by extremists because of the way she speaks out against terrorism. That is not the sign of one who is playing games. Perhaps, considering the facts of the situation, we might give her the benefit of the doubt that she is sincere in her promotion of human rights, democracy, pluralism, and peace. Don't you think?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[shannonL]

Even if she is sincere there are not enough of her kind to make a difference. There may be some Muslims out there who are against terrorism but they won't get involved. Maybe because they don't care or maybe they know that if they do they could get their own throat cut when they least expect it . It really doesn't matter if there are peacable muslims or moderate muslims. The fact of the matter is its the radical muslims that are in control of islam. Why? well because other muslims fear them and other muslims are apathetic trying to promote their brand of islam.Yet, there is another type of islamist out there and that is the two faced muslim. The ones that promote peace publically and fund terrorsim privately.
It may hurt some feeling of some and I may look intolerant but Islam is a religon that needs to be utterly defeated. Wiped off the face of the earth. Even if by force.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Irshad agrees with you that Islam is being controlled by extremists. This is part of what she sees as the problem with Islam. She, and I, would disagree with you that we need to wipe all Muslims off the face of the earth. That would probably play well in the days of the Crusades, but not with me. Islam needs to be reformed, and there are many within Islam who are working to do that today. Sometimes, the minority can make a big difference.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[robycop3]

I'll hafta agree with JIM. The Moslems know they don't have full acceptance from most Americans & that they'll NEVER have it from Christians or Jews.

I believe that most Moslems would try to destroy us if they thought they had any chance. They've seen the success that gays and atheists have had in clamoring for their "rights" here, and are slowly beginning to do likewise. There WILL be those such as Irshad who won't go along, but they are a tiny minority. Moslems have had an almost-unbroken history of violently opposing any other religion whenever they've had the power to do so. Fortunately for us, their military history shows little success since their conquest of Constantinople in 1453. The Ottoman Empire, I believe, was the epitome of their military success, but it spent its last 300 years of existence only because of the good will of its neighbors. It was helpless in the Crimean War, and in WW1, where it chose the wrong side, was soundly defeated, and broken up, with only TURKEY retaining any strength.

However, my hat goes off to the Turks, who chose to tweak the nose of their mighty neighbor, the USSR, knowing full well that if the USA & USSR went to war, Turkey would be overwhelmed within a few hours before the USA could help them.

Sure, Turkey has been a loyal ally...but what if they were to gain great military power????????

It's GOD who decides the outcome of wars & the size & duration of empires & nations. While God limited the Ottoman Empire, He also prevented the Greeks, then the Byzantines from conquering what's now turkey & Arabia way back when. However, the vast majority of Moslems still believe they should destroy any non-Islamic nation or religion if they can.(Entertaining fiction concerning the Arabs of pre-1453: The Lance Of Kanana, Harry French, 1892)

 

[av1611jim]

Certainly there are "moderate" catholics as surley as there are "moderate" muslims. My point had more to do with the system of Islam as compared to the system of Catholicism.

Not much difference between the two regardless of a few outspoken individuals within each system.

Once either idealology gains power politically, those few outspoken individuals would be silenced forthwith.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

They might keep them from speaking or being heard, as was the case with Irshad Manji in her childhood, but they have not permanently silenced her, and she is certainly being heard today.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[av1611jim]

Um, ya think a decapitation MIGHT silence someone?


In HIS service;
Jim

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Can't decapitate everyone, which is the lesson the terrorists learned in Iraq when 8 million Iraqis went to the polls last January.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[av1611jim]

Whatever Joseph.

Wait and see is all I can say at this point.

Wait and see.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[DHK]

The legislature of Pakistan's North West Frontier Province (NWFP) has passed a bill that has been described by critics as the "Talibanization" of Pakistan. The law sets up a watchdog with the power to reform the society in accordance to "Islamic values," which includes ensuring that such values are observed in public places. The legislation is strongly opposed by the federal government, which has filed an appeal in the Supreme Court's Karachi bench. The federally appointed governor of NWFP, Khalilur Rehman, has vowed to take every take every constitutional step available to prevent the law from being implemented.

Read the full article here:
PERSECUTION
DHK

 

[shannonL]

Joseph you stated a few post back that "Islam needs to be reformed." If all religion outside of a relationship with Jesus Christ is false religion what good would reform do? How would you reform the teachings of Islam? Take all the references to Jihad out the Koran? What would you do? What would be the purpose of a softer, less violent form of Islam? Its teachings would still damn people to hell that believe in it.
Actually that quote didn't sound like you JB.

When I mentioned that Islam should be wiped of the face of the earth even by force. I just meant in kind of overblown way that it would have been better for the world if the religion had never been formed to begin with.

 

[LadyEagle]

Thanks, DHK. From the editorial link on that site:

This is the crux of the matter. While Islam is a house with many rooms, the entire building rests upon a foundation of religious intolerance and discrimination that we must insist on being abandoned and rebuilt. Such fundamental changes must be made.

Am I optimistic that they can be? Not really. That's why I am not sure that the so-called "war of terrorism" can ever be won. While we are fighting against one room in the house of Islam, the room shares the same foundation with the rest of the house. This is perhaps why so few moderate Muslims are prepared to speak up. While they abhor the violence and the terror done in the name of Islam, they know that they share too much in common to address the real issues that could put an end to militancy in Islam. How do you begin without dismantling the house entirely?

http://www.persecution.net/news/editorial14.html

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by shannonL:
Joseph you stated a few post back that "Islam needs to be reformed." If all religion outside of a relationship with Jesus Christ is false religion what good would reform do? How would you reform the teachings of Islam? Take all the references to Jihad out the Koran? What would you do? What would be the purpose of a softer, less violent form of Islam? Its teachings would still damn people to hell that believe in it.
Actually that quote didn't sound like you JB.

When I mentioned that Islam should be wiped of the face of the earth even by force. I just meant in kind of overblown way that it would have been better for the world if the religion had never been formed to begin with.

1. Yes, the teachings will still condemn them to hell, but at least they won't be trying to blow up my son on their way there.

2. I misunderstood what you meant. I apologize, and I agree. It would be better if all false religions that don't accept Christ as the Messiah were wiped out, theologically speaking.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[shannonL]

Yes, theologically speaking.

 

[emeraldctyangel]

With regard to what LadyEagle posted...I think some people actually miss the point or maybe dont really want to see the point of the war on terror. Sheer violence, one with a cataclismic end can send a message for generations. I think that is what we will be facing sooner or later. That or we will just wear them down.

Not much in the way of choice is there?

 

[mioque]

Robycop
"in WW1, where it chose the wrong side, was soundly defeated, and broken up, with only TURKEY retaining any strength.
However, my hat goes off to the Turks, who chose to tweak the nose of their mighty neighbor, the USSR, knowing full well that if the USA & USSR went to war, Turkey would be overwhelmed within a few hours before the USA could help them."
"
Possibly the biggest defeat the Allies suffered during WWI was vs. the Turks at Gallipoli.
http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/Gallery/Anzac/galli-poli/
http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/Alley/5443/gall.htm
The Turkish government no doubt expected to do something similar to the Sovjets in case of an invasion.