Must a Christian believe That Moses Wrote the First 5 bible Books?

[stilllearning]

I see.

Some of you have a problem with the syntax of this line.......
"So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD"?

That is, if Moses wrote this, than why did he refer to himself in the third person?
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Well, we can’t allow the syntax of Scripture to confuse us.
The rest of the Bible clearly says that Moses wrote the first 5 books of the Bible:
(This can not be disputed.) If it can...let me know!

But if your going to worry about syntax, than how to you explain these 53 times, God spoke through Moses and said.... “Moses said”......
Exodus 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
Exodus 3:11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?
Exodus 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
Exodus 4:10 And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.
Exodus 6:30 And Moses said before the LORD, Behold, I am of uncircumcised lips, and how shall Pharaoh hearken unto me?
Exodus 8:9 And Moses said unto Pharaoh, Glory over me: when shall I intreat for thee, and for thy servants, and for thy people, to destroy the frogs from thee and thy houses, that they may remain in the river only?
Exodus 8:26 And Moses said, It is not meet so to do; for we shall sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians to the LORD our God: lo, shall we sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, and will they not stone us?
Exodus 8:29 And Moses said, Behold, I go out from thee, and I will intreat the LORD that the swarms of flies may depart from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people, to morrow: but let not Pharaoh deal deceitfully any more in not letting the people go to sacrifice to the LORD.
Exodus 9:29 And Moses said unto him, As soon as I am gone out of the city, I will spread abroad my hands unto the LORD; and the thunder shall cease, neither shall there be any more hail; that thou mayest know how that the earth is the LORD’S.
Exodus 10:9 And Moses said, We will go with our young and with our old, with our sons and with our daughters, with our flocks and with our herds will we go; for we must hold a feast unto the LORD.
Exodus 10:25 And Moses said, Thou must give us also sacrifices and burnt offerings, that we may sacrifice unto the LORD our God.
Exodus 10:29 And Moses said, Thou hast spoken well, I will see thy face again no more.
Exodus 11:4 And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt:
Exodus 13:3 And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out from this place: there shall no leavened bread be eaten.
Exodus 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.
Exodus 16:8 And Moses said, This shall be, when the LORD shall give you in the evening flesh to eat, and in the morning bread to the full; for that the LORD heareth your murmurings which ye murmur against him: and what are we? your murmurings are not against us, but against the LORD.
Exodus 16:15 And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the LORD hath given you to eat.
Exodus 16:19 And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning.
Exodus 16:25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
Exodus 16:32 And Moses said, This is the thing which the LORD commandeth, Fill an omer of it to be kept for your generations; that they may see the bread wherewith I have fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you forth from the land of Egypt.
Exodus 16:33 And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a pot, and put an omer full of manna therein, and lay it up before the LORD, to be kept for your generations.
Exodus 17:2 Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?
Exodus 17:9 And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand.
Exodus 18:15 And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to enquire of God:
Exodus 19:23 And Moses said unto the LORD, The people cannot come up to mount Sinai: for thou chargedst us, saying, Set bounds about the mount, and sanctify it.
Exodus 20:20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
Exodus 32:21 And Moses said unto Aaron, What did this people unto thee, that thou hast brought so great a sin upon them?
Exodus 32:30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
Exodus 33:12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.
Exodus 35:30 And Moses said unto the children of Israel, See, the LORD hath called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah;
Leviticus 8:5 And Moses said unto the congregation, This is the thing which the LORD commanded to be done.
Leviticus 8:31 And Moses said unto Aaron and to his sons, Boil the flesh at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and there eat it with the bread that is in the basket of consecrations, as I commanded, saying, Aaron and his sons shall eat it.
Leviticus 9:6 And Moses said, This is the thing which the LORD commanded that ye should do: and the glory of the LORD shall appear unto you.
Leviticus 9:7 And Moses said unto Aaron, Go unto the altar, and offer thy sin offering, and thy burnt offering, and make an atonement for thyself, and for the people: and offer the offering of the people, and make an atonement for them; as the LORD commanded.
Leviticus 10:3 Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that the LORD spake, saying, I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified. And Aaron held his peace.
Leviticus 10:6 And Moses said unto Aaron, and unto Eleazar and unto Ithamar, his sons, Uncover not your heads, neither rend your clothes; lest ye die, and lest wrath come upon all the people: but let your brethren, the whole house of Israel, bewail the burning which the LORD hath kindled.
Numbers 9:8 And Moses said unto them, Stand still, and I will hear what the LORD will command concerning you.
Numbers 10:29 And Moses said unto Hobab, the son of Raguel the Midianite, Moses’ father in law, We are journeying unto the place of which the LORD said, I will give it you: come thou with us, and we will do thee good: for the LORD hath spoken good concerning Israel.
Numbers 10:35 And it came to pass, when the ark set forward, that Moses said, Rise up, LORD, and let thine enemies be scattered; and let them that hate thee flee before thee.
Numbers 11:11 And Moses said unto the LORD, Wherefore hast thou afflicted thy servant? and wherefore have I not found favour in thy sight, that thou layest the burden of all this people upon me?
Numbers 11:21 And Moses said, The people, among whom I am, are six hundred thousand footmen; and thou hast said, I will give them flesh, that they may eat a whole month.
Numbers 11:29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD’S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!
Numbers 14:13 And Moses said unto the LORD, Then the Egyptians shall hear it, (for thou broughtest up this people in thy might from among them
Numbers 14:41 And Moses said, Wherefore now do ye transgress the commandment of the LORD? but it shall not prosper.
Numbers 16:8 And Moses said unto Korah, Hear, I pray you, ye sons of Levi:
Numbers 16:16 And Moses said unto Korah, Be thou and all thy company before the LORD, thou, and they, and Aaron, to morrow:
Numbers 16:28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.
Numbers 16:46 And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun.
Numbers 25:5 And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.
Numbers 31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
Numbers 32:6 And Moses said unto the children of Gad and to the children of Reuben, Shall your brethren go to war, and shall ye sit here?
Numbers 32:20 And Moses said unto them, If ye will do this thing, if ye will go armed before the LORD to war,
Numbers 32:29 And Moses said unto them, If the children of Gad and the children of Reuben will pass with you over Jordan, every man armed to battle, before the LORD, and the land shall be subdued before you; then ye shall give them the land of Gilead for a possession:

 

[Deacon]

Obvious Additions

These are the kings who reigned in the land of Edom, before any king reigned over the Israelites.
Genesis 36:31 (ESV)

How would Moses know about king's reigning over the land of Israel?
This is an obvious addition used to explain the text to readers of a later age.


Now the man Moses was very meek, more than all people who were on the face of the earth.
Numbers 12:3 (ESV)

Was Moses really saying that he was the most humble person?
Another obvious addition.

And there has not arisen a prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,
Deuteronomy 34:10 (ESV)

What would be the purpose of this verse if Moses wrote it? Not very impressive! However if it was written in later ages it would be weighty.

Rob

 

[12strings]

Still learning:

The question was asked:

Is it required for salvation?

You replied with:

Jesus said that it was.......
John 5:46-47
V.46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
V.47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

You later said it was simply "dangerous", but here you said it is NECESSARY FOR SALVATION.


Anyway, there is nowhere in the Bible that says Moses wrote ALL of the pentateuch. So I'm not disbelieving the bible.

 

[stilllearning]

Still learning:

The question was asked:

You replied with:


You later said it was simply "dangerous", but here you said it is NECESSARY FOR SALVATION.


Anyway, there is nowhere in the Bible that says Moses wrote ALL of the pentateuch. So I'm not disbelieving the bible.

Hi 12strings

You misunderstood.

My post that you are referring to, was in response to your post that said........

“You do realize you are saying I am not a Christian simply because I think Joshua or someone else wrote the end of Deuteronomy about Moses' death, don't you?“

Even though I may be your neighbor(that guy across the street), I don’t know you.
Therefore I could not really say that “you” are not a Christian.
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Technically yes.....it is NECESSARY FOR SALVATION to believe the Bible.
But just because someone says, “I don’t believe” so-n-so, doesn’t carry a lot of weight.

And even if you admitted that you “did not believe the Bible”, I am not allowed to call you unsaved on this forum. (That is against the rules.)

At this very moment, there is someone on another part of this forum who is flatly denying that Jesus (#?#?#?#?), and even though all of us on that thread are ministering to him, no one has come out and told him that he is lost and going to hell.
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Sometimes we as Christians(while still growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ), will “say things”, that we will later find out were wrong.

Therefore I was being kind to you and told you that it was "dangerous" to have such an attitude.



Oh by the way, I am not really your neighbor.
(But you will notice, that I never really said that I was.)

 

[stilllearning]

These are the kings who reigned in the land of Edom, before any king reigned over the Israelites.
Genesis 36:31 (ESV)

How would Moses know about king's reigning over the land of Israel?
This is an obvious addition used to explain the text to readers of a later age.


Now the man Moses was very meek, more than all people who were on the face of the earth.
Numbers 12:3 (ESV)

Was Moses really saying that he was the most humble person?
Another obvious addition.

And there has not arisen a prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,
Deuteronomy 34:10 (ESV)

What would be the purpose of this verse if Moses wrote it? Not very impressive! However if it was written in later ages it would be weighty.

Rob

I think you have a point!

I have removed the Book of Genesis from my Bible(it only has 65 books in it now).
Because there is know way, that Moses could have known any of that stuff.

Thank you for pointing that out to me.
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Oh, but Moses was writing by inspiration, therefore he was not writing from his own knowledge or personal experience.
He was simply writing down the words that the Holy Spirit gave him.

Now, where did I put that glue?

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In all seriousness, you said............

“What would be the purpose of this verse if Moses wrote it? Not very impressive! However if it was written in later ages it would be weighty.”

The Bible is God’s Word and was not written by just anybody........
2 Peter 1:21
“For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.”

The fact that God used “chosen men” to pen His Word, is the only thing that really gives it any “weight” at all.
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As for the writers “knowing” about the things that they wrote;
The Bible clearly says that they didn’t........
1 Peter 1:10-12
V.10 ¶ Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you:
V.11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
V.12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

No Bible writer really “knew” what he was writing.
They were simply writing down the words that God told them to write.

 

[preachinjesus]

I know reasoning with you is akin to convincing a child that they aren't the center of the world, but you're being needlessly dramatic.

To say just because someone questions, legitimately, another there might have been a later editor(s) which added, for clarity, to the Pentateuch and thus makes the entire text (i.e. Genesis) invalid is an unnecessary position.

One can believe and affirm that Moses is the primary author (thus affirming Christ's notation) while also realizing that there might have been other, minor editors who (just as equally inspired) added to the text.

Besides, this happens all the time in publishing today. I'd be willing to bet that there's a book or two near you that have an author listed on them cover but never mention the ghost writer or the editor at the publishing house.

 

[jaigner]

is it required to hold that he did indeed write all or most of the "Books of the law?"

OR can we hold to liberal viewpoints on this?

Calling it "liberal" to not hold to Mosaic authorship is laughable. We really need to have some evangelical authority explain to us what defines a "liberal" viewpoint.

Is it required for salvation, orthodoxy or evangelicalism? As another poster previously stated, no. Not in the least.

 

[stilllearning]

Good morning preachinjesus

How are you this fine day?

You said.........

“I know reasoning with you is akin to convincing a child that they aren't the center of the world, but you're being needlessly dramatic.”

As you can see, my “drama” was necessary, in order to get you to respond.
As for the comment about being “the center of the world”. I don’t understand that.

I simply choose to believe the Bible.
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You also said..........

“To say just because someone questions, legitimately, another there might have been a later editor(s) which added, for clarity, to the Pentateuch and thus makes the entire text (i.e. Genesis) invalid is an unnecessary position.”

I believe the term that was used was “weighty”.
And for someone to say that the Bible would carry more weight with them, if it was “edited” later on in time, when more things were clear, is “fantastic”.

The Bible is only Special because “God wrote it”(using men to pen it).
And the Bible proves itself to be God’s Word, by “foretelling” things that haven’t happened yet; and/or revealing things that no human being could possibly know!

So to say that Moses could not have written something because there was no way he could have known about it, is mind blowing.

How can I put my faith and my eternity, in a book that was written by man.
I couldn’t and I wouldn’t!
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You continue........

“One can believe and affirm that Moses is the primary author (thus affirming Christ's notation) while also realizing that there might have been other, minor editors who (just as equally inspired) added to the text.”

This is true.
But why would anyone want to do it.

That is, why would a Christian want to tiptoe right up to the edge and say.....
“Well, we can probably get away with this!”

Why not simply believe the Bible.
No where in the pages of the Pentateuch, does it say anything about minor edits being made by anybody else.
(If it does, please show them to me.)
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You conclude by saying........

“Besides, this happens all the time in publishing today. I'd be willing to bet that there's a book or two near you that have an author listed on them cover but never mention the ghost writer or the editor at the publishing house.”

You are right.

But the Bible is not “just a book”: The Bible is God’s Word.

And the only “ghost writer” that I am interested in, is the Holy Ghost!

 

[tinytim]

I think you have a point!

I have removed the Book of Genesis from my Bible(it only has 65 books in it now).
Because there is know way, that Moses could have known any of that stuff.

Thank you for pointing that out to me.
------------------
Oh, but Moses was writing by inspiration, therefore he was not writing from his own knowledge or personal experience.
He was simply writing down the words that the Holy Spirit gave him.

Now, where did I put that glue?

--------------------------------------------------

In all seriousness, you said............

The Bible is God’s Word and was not written by just anybody........
2 Peter 1:21
“For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.”

The fact that God used “chosen men” to pen His Word, is the only thing that really gives it any “weight” at all.
------------------------
As for the writers “knowing” about the things that they wrote;
The Bible clearly says that they didn’t........
1 Peter 1:10-12
V.10 ¶ Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you:
V.11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
V.12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

No Bible writer really “knew” what he was writing.
They were simply writing down the words that God told them to write.

I am simply amazed at your ignorance!.. I'm glad you are stilllearning.. take some logic classes while you are at it... .

God did not "dictate" the Bible.. He inspired it!.. learn the difference!...
Quit worshipping the Bible.. worship God.

 

[convicted1]

Did Moses write "So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD"?

I think he did. Moses wrote about things that happened a long time before his birth. I also believe that he wrote about his death while under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. IOW, he foretold his death.

 

[Aaron]

I am simply amazed at your ignorance!.. I'm glad you are stilllearning.. take some logic classes while you are at it... .

God did not "dictate" the Bible.. He inspired it!.. learn the difference!...
Quit worshipping the Bible.. worship God.

Are you suggesting one can know anything of Christ that isn't written?

 

[Aaron]

To the OP: Saying the Books of Moses is like saying the Gospel of Jesus Christ. No one is suggesting Christ took up pen and paper and wrote the Gospels, only that He is the subject and authority.

There's no question the prophetic segments of the Penteteuch were penned by Moses, but to call it a book of Moses is not to say he is the sole contributor.

 

[Alcott]

Who’s going to get into the ark of the covenant, take it out and “add to it”??

Then how do we have any script of it? Did he Xerox it before he threw it in the ark?

 

[stilllearning]

Then how do we have any script of it? Did he Xerox it before he threw it in the ark?

Therefore your saying that God allowed the copyists, added to it!
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Not only does taking this view, rob “you” of “your” faith in the Bible:
But it robs God, of His ability to preserve His Word!