Must a Fundemental baptist be A calvinist?

I suppose that you, being the academic that you are have never misstyped or mispelled a word in your life. I am not a typist, and sometimes i find it difficult to type letters in the correct order, and sometimes i even find it difficult to correctly spell words that I have no trouble spelling when writing them instead of typing.

So, go ahead and make fun of my intellectual inferiority.....your superior knowledge, your divine understanding and your spelling and typing skills overwhelm me. I bow to you, master.

John

PS, non-cals don't write about it because we see no need. Our book was written 2000 years ago, and we see no need to re-write it.

 

I am sorry, but I see no need to study Calvinism in detail, just as I see no need to study Budism, Islam, or VooDoo.....there is no biblical basis to it.

There is no other side from a biblical sense, so why waste my time going deeper into false doctrines?

The Word of God is simple, it had to be for man to understand it. But Calvinists overthink it and add to it. They want it to be complicated and intellectual. Jesus said "All that will" can come to Him. He never said some are welcome and some are not. This is why I refuse to even visit a Calvinist church, because you would deny that all are able to be saved and have a choice.

I will be no part of adding to the scripture.

John

 

I cannot find that Sproul quote at the moment, but I when I find it I will show it. But there are numerous quotes from Calvin. Here is just one of dozens;

"He has plenty of reasons for comfort as he realises that the devil and all the ungodly are reigned in by God, so that they cannot conceive, plan, or carry out any crime, unless God allows it, indeed commands it. They are not only in bondage to him, but are forced to serve him. It is the Lord's prerogative to enable the enemy's rage and to control it at his will, and it is in his power to decide how far and how long it may last, so that the wicked man cannot break free and do exactly what they want."

Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 17, Sec. 10

Wow! Calvin says God is controlling the devil and all the ungodly so that they cannot CONCEIVE, PLAN, OR CARRY OUT ANY CRIME unless God not simply allows it, but COMMANDS it!

Do you get that? They can't even "conceive" evil unless God commands it!

Calvin even makes it sound as if God causes men to do evil against their will. Amazing.

Now how in the world can God not be the author of sin if this is true?

So, don't tell me I misrepresent Calvinism, I have quoted Calvin himself with reference provided. I can show you a dozen similar statements by Calvin.

 

Wow, they think God uses the Devil to do His dirty work? Unbelievable.

That's like saying that I am sinless, so instead of me robbing the bank I am going to tell my little brother to do it so I can remain blameless.

I would like to see Calvin explaining that to God in person.

John

 

John,

That is a prt of the problem with Fundamentalism. I think it is important to read works contrary to my beliefs, so that I can intellectually engage them.

Dr. D.A. Carson noted that one of the big problems with some Christian schools is that they did not have them interact intellectually with opposing views (like Paul apparently did). So, when these students were eventually exposed to contrary views, they many were not capable of intellectually dealing with the contrary viewpoints that they surrendered to modernism. I require my children to read things both for and against our viewpoint, and we talk about them and intellectually engage them from a Christian worldview.

What you communicate is that you really don't care if something is Biblical or not, you only care what you think right now and everything else is wrong. That is, in my opinion, the #1 reason fundamentalists have a bad name.

 

No, Calvin is saying worse, he is saying neither the devil or any sinner is even able to CONCEIVE evil unless he commands it!

Your little brother has a mind of his own, he may go along with you and be an accomplice. That is not what Calvin is saying, he is saying God causes and enables them to conceive evil and FORCES them to obey. They are not accomplices, they are victims.

And this is the guy who is the foundation and chief theologian for their doctrine. Wow!

 

Thanks for the quote and I personally went to Book I Chapter 17 Section 10. You give me a great reason why I think you are attacking something in ignorance. You took a quote from someone else, and used it. You didn't even check the source. The entire section is quoted below:

If I cannot trust you to double check Calvin's Institutes for your quotation, how can I trust you to quote accurately R.C. Sproul? If I cannot trust a basic quotation, I cannot trust you to get his quotation in context.

Thus, often when I see sorta accurate quotations, they are taken out of context.

Again, this shows me that there is no desire to study Calvin's actual writings or what they actually say, but to study your own people and quote them without studying both sides. It is about proving you are right instead of truly studying.

 

BTW, I read the entire chapter and this statement is not in this entire chapter.

 

I might have gotten the reference wrong, but it is easy enough to check and see if Calvin truly wrote this. Simply copy and paste any part of that statement into Google, and you will find where it came from.

I am on a phone and so cannot copy and paste, so I had to write that statement down, and then write it here. I make mistakes like anyone else on occasion, especially when it is difficult for me to post quotes here.

But if you are honest you will search and see for yourself if I misrepresented Calvin.

And what will you do if you find this statement accurate? Will you continue to follow such doctrine? My guess is you will.

 

I did, and there is no direct quotation linking it to Calvin's Institutes. There are links to other websites citing the exact same book, chapter, and section that you cited and using this quote, but I have not found it in Calvin's Institutes.

But that is a moot point. You obviously are using secondary sources to attack him. You don't really care to understanding what he may have meant by any statement he made, or in reading him and letting him speak for himself.

You are convinced you are right and you attack a figment of your imagination that you call "Calvinism" but it is different than what you are attacking. You don't care, you are right and we are wrong and you are sure you know better our belief than we know our own.

 

I went back and that should have been section 11. Read and see if it is there and report back please.

And JF, you are the LAST person that should criticize others for a typographical error. I promise my keyboard is smaller than yours, I have to use the tip of a pen to write. My entire keyboard is only 1" by 2".

 

Calvin writes: “He has plenty of reasons for comfort as he realises that the devil and all the ungodly are reined in by God, so that they cannot conceive, plan or carry out any crime, unless God allows it, indeed commands it. They are not only in bondage to him, but are forced to serve him. It is the Lord’s prerogative to enable the enemy’s rage and to control it at will, and it is in his power to decide how far and how long it may last, so that wicked men cannot break free and do exactly what they want....” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 17, Sect. 11, emphasis mine)


Looks like Calvin to me

John

 

I should have written Section 11. I erred and wrote Section 10.

Be honest and tell me if it is in Section 11, I don't have the Institutes.

But I can find them online, and I will look for myself.

 

I found it online, it is worded slightly different (it is a translation afterall), but it says the same thing, that the devil and sinners cannot conceive mischief unless God commands it.

Google;

But when they call to mind that the devil, and the whole train of the ungodly are, in all directions held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so they can neither conceive any mischief

Google that and you will find Calvin's quote. I did, and it says the same thing, that we cannot even conceive evil unless God commands it.

So, I have not misrepresented Calvin in the least, this is simply a slightly different translation.

Do you agree now?

 

In all fairness to the Calvinists, I have read two different Calvinistic views on this and they refer to the fall of man to support their views.

One side says that God created the elect to receive mercy and salvation, and that He causes them to live godly lives. And that He created the non-elect to remain reprobate, and indeed forces them to remain reprobate. Even by forcing them to sin, or "hardening their hearts'. In other words, God calls His elect to holiness, and He calls the non-elect to sin.

Sproul says that God created all men as reprobates and He simply chooses whom He wants to save, but does not force them into reprobation. Sproul does not teach that God is the author of sin, simply says that God only extends mercy to the sinners of His choosing. Sproul also says that God knew before creation who He would extend mercy to and who He wouldn't.

I would come closer to Sproul's beliefs in that I agree that God knows who will be saved before we are even born, I just don't believe that God "preordains" or chooses His elect.

But here is where I really depart from Sproul's teachings:

"Another significant difference between the activity of God with respect to the elect and the reprobate concerns God's justice. The decree and fulfillment of election provide mercy for the elect while the efficacy of reprobation provides justice for the reprobate. God shows mercy sovereignly and unconditionally to some, and gives justice to those passed over in election. That is to say, God grants the mercy of election to some and justice to others. No one is the victim of injustice. To fail to receive mercy is not to be treated unjustly. God is under no obligation to grant mercy to all — in fact He is under no obligation to grant mercy to any. He says, "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy" (Rom. 9). The divine prerogative to grant mercy voluntarily cannot be faulted. If God is required by some cosmic law apart from Himself to be merciful to all men, then we would have to conclude that justice demands mercy. If that is so, then mercy is no longer voluntary, but required. If mercy is required, it is no longer mercy, but justice. What God does not do is sin by visiting injustice upon the reprobate. Only by considering election and reprobation as being asymmetrical in terms of a positive-negative schema can God be exonerated from injustice." From "Double Predestination" by RC Sproul

The Bible teaches that God's mercy is there for everyone that would recieve it, the problem is not that God doesn't extend mercy, the problem is that men reject it.

God doesn't stop anyone from being saved, we still have a choice, but God does know who will make that choice and who won't. The implication of Calvinism is that we are helpless to make a choice if we not one of the predestined elect. Again, I disagree, we all can make a choice, God just knows beforehand what our choice will be.

John

 

Yes, I found it at another source from the Institutes online. It is worded slightly different, but that can be expected, it is a translation, and one translator will say it slightly different, but it also says the devil and ungodly can conceive no mischief unless God commands it.

These guys never come clean, they know quite well Calvin said this.

 

I read all the sections in that Chapter, but here is section 11

If that is the section you were quoting, then you are tremendously misquoting Calvin by changing the sentence structure and by taking it out of context (though, I am not sure this is your quote). He doesn't say God puts evil thoughts in our mind nor does he say that he does evil. Rather, He says that God permits evil but is more powerful than evil. He permits satan's attack, but He is more powerful than Satan and can thwart Satan. In essence, Calvin is espousing that God is more powerful than Evil and if He did not permit it, it would not happen.

If this is the section, first, your citation is really not accurate. Secondly, is there anyone in Christianity who would deny that God is less powerful than the evil person? Would they deny that God is more powerful than thest? I can cite you dozens of non-reformed scholars who would agree with this viewpoint. In fact, I don't know of one Christian who would disagree.

The issue is on the "commands." I think you may be thinking Calvin is saying that He commands evil and that is not the doctrine being espoused. He commands and controls all things, in that regard the evil person will only do what God allows, if he commands him to not do the evil man desires, it will not be done. If he commands the man to do what is in the heart of man, it will be done. God is not evil in that, he is merely restraining and allowing, but commanding and controlling man from being as wicked as man would desire to be. Thus, Augustine's "Give what you command, and command what you will" is in line with this entire thought.

I know Arminians who will confess that God restrains evil, but permits it at times. Calvin agrees.

Are people forced to serve God? Yes! Satan is forced to serve God in this context. Why? God is more powerful than Satan and even despite Satan's hatred for God, Satan is forced to serve him. That does not mean to worship God, but it means to serve God's purpose. That is what it means to say that God works all things together for good.... Everything that happens is meant to serve God. Pilate had Christ crucified. God worked it out for good and Pilate served God despite his evil. Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery. It was evil but God used it as a way to serve Him and God used it for good. Judas betrayed Jesus with a kiss, it was evil but God used it to serve Him.

Thus, taking this quote out of context (and it not being a great quote) destroys the point Calvin is making. Evil is not more powerful than God. God commanded Christ to be crucified, and Satan served God even in His evil deeds. Yet, to show God was in control, not one bone of Christ's was broken. He permitted Satan to go only so far, but not one step further.