Must a Marriage be legally licensed to be accepted by God?

[Aaron]

What's the difference between not being legally married, and 'shacking up'?

Depends on what one calls being "legally married."

All marriage is a matter of common law. IOW, nature and nature's God defines marriage. Common law marriage is not "shacking up," and there is no state in which mere cohabitation for any amount of time defines a common law marriage.

 

[Aaron]

This brings up two questions. Can one be married in the eyes of God but not legally, or, can one be married legally but not in the eyes of God?

As Aaron said or affirmed, if one has taken vows before the Lord Jesus, then one is married in the eyes of God. If one gets married in a legal ceremony, then proceeds to live apart forever, and assuming there was no consummation before marriage, then maybe they are not married in the eyes of God.

To me, they both sound technical and ridiculous. Why not do it as perscirbed by Scripture and the law? Does not Scripture tell us to obey the law of our land? Doesn't that make more sense, to do it the perscirbed way?

What is marriage?

 

[Jedi Knight]

Jesus said the Man that she was with now "Shacking" was not her husband. John 4:18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.

 

[SovereignMercy]

Bottom line, NO, I would not them permit them to join our church - nor would I endorse their minsitry. Yes, it is based part on culture.

Think about this - 5 years down the road -they decide to spilt - no need to divorce - legally - but if they link up with someone else - would it then be adultery? ....

Yes, it would be. All remarriage before the death of a spouse is adultery as clearly taught by Jesus and the Apostle Paul.

Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.

The Pharisees came and asked Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" testing Him. And He answered and said to them, "What did Moses command you?" They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her." And Jesus answered and said to them, "Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation, God 'made them male and female.' 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate." In the house His disciples also asked Him again about the same matter. So He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery."

The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who madethem at the beginning 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate." They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery." His disciples said to Him, "If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry." But He said to them, "All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given: For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it."

A wife is bound by law as long as her husband lives; but if her husband dies, she is at liberty to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.

 

[LillyoftheValley]

When it comes to the education and rearing of one's children, and how divorce and other matters of probate are handled, the state says it is an equal party and has an equal say, and will use its overwhelming force to coerce the other parties.

The issue of marriage licensing came to the surface in Baptist circles (as far as I can tell) back in the early 80's in the battle between Dr. Everett (Sileven) Ramsey and the state of Nebraska over whether or not the state could truly require Faith Baptist Church to use state-licensed teachers in their private school.

When the state not only chained the church doors shut, but removed the children who attended the school from their families, their authority to do so was challenged, and the state appealed to its rights as an equal third party to the marriage contracts.

I was not born for another 3 years so i can't really comment first hand about what went on, but my grandfather is Dr. Everett (Sileven) Ramsey. My father was the associate pastor of Fath Baptist Church at that time, and my mother (Everett's daughter) a school teacher at the school. Wow, I didn't realize that people actually knew about this.

 

[nodak]

In our state, if you present yourself as married you are, by common law, and if you split up it DOES require a legal divorce even though you have no marriage certificate.

Two caveats: in some parts of the world, many do believe the govt intrusion has become so bad they must as matter of concience not adhere to govt rules. So no marriage certificates, avoidance as long as possible of birth certificates, ss type numbers or id's, etc. In those cases I can see accepting the people's marriage as viable according to their, but not the state's, culture.

But there are other folks who just seem to want to rebel against any perceived authority. In their case, I would direct them to the story of Timothy. The law was fulfilled and he need not be circumsized, but he submitted to it so as not to have his ministry sidelined. Rebels should just get the license.

 

[Bronconagurski]

Yes, it would be. All remarriage before the death of a spouse is adultery as clearly taught by Jesus and the Apostle Paul.

Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.

The Pharisees came and asked Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" testing Him. And He answered and said to them, "What did Moses command you?" They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her." And Jesus answered and said to them, "Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation, God 'made them male and female.' 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate." In the house His disciples also asked Him again about the same matter. So He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery."

The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who madethem at the beginning 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate." They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery." His disciples said to Him, "If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry." But He said to them, "All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given: For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it."

A wife is bound by law as long as her husband lives; but if her husband dies, she is at liberty to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.

I beg to differ that all remarriage before the death of a spouse is wrong. Matthew 5:32 and 19:9 tell a different story. Infidelity is a reason for divorce.

 

[Tom Butler]

Here is Romans 13:1-2

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Seems to me that Paul is saying that those who have the rule over us are there because God allows them to be there. Actually intends them to be there. Laws are for our benefit. And marriage laws fit that category.

 

[jprieto]

Personally I don't understand this. By simply registering (not even havin a ceremony as I understand it) they avoid distractions to God's work. I mean, it's tough enough serving God and running a ministry without having a distraction like "They're not legally married!"
...

Aha!
That is the point they want to make:

Why cant Christian see the good that they do (glass half full) rather than focus on a legality distraction (glass half empyty)?

They trumpet the legality, but fail to praise the mission.

Time is running out on all of us, God is on a univeral mission to reconcile creation to Him. Why then get in the way of those choosing that path?

My side favors embracing God and serving in His worldwide mission, while many rather stop everything and distract attention to that which God has not made judgement on.

I've seen pastors refuse volunteers simply because they did not have a certificate of baptist hanging on wall ... now are we to stop this couple simply becuase they also dont have a marriage certificate hanging on their wall?

Jesus disciples did that all the time: constantly getting in the way of those moving toward a closeness to Jesus.

No wonder Jesus looked outside his disciples to minister to the Gentiles.

If God embrace, why pull back those walking into His arms?

I am ashame of fellow brothers and sisters who insist on compliance with a legality rather than a genuine commitment to God.

This was the same reason Paul scolded Peter in public and called him a hypocrate (see Galatians).

Remember the scary warning Christ gave to those who get in the way of little ones. And as humbled and repentant believers wishing only to serve God we are His little ones.

 

[jprieto]

Bottom line, NO, I would not them permit them to join our church - nor would I endorse their minsitry. Yes, it is based part on culture.

Thanks for your reply - it made me feel better.

For a moment there I thought I was hallucinating thinking that its silly to think christians would actually stop other sincere christians from serving the lord. To do so, I would think, is to join Satan in his agenda.

Okay, so now I now I am indeed sane. It was not my imgination.

Yes .... lets stop this couple
.... how dare they save souls?

They got nerve to do so without being married first!!
Wow.... we got to stop them before more people get saved, and backsliders repent!!

I just hope we are not so late!
See who else will help us stop them!!

In 2 weeks, they saved 6 souls ---- and those souls are now part of a bible-teaching church --- we need to stop them!

 

[jprieto]

Jesus said the Man that she was with now "Shacking" was not her husband. John 4:18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.

That was a live-in lover - it was not referring to a marital relation made by covenant before God.

 

[thomas15]

In my opinion, no ministry is under obligation to support another ministry. A ministry is free to decide the parameters of their associations. If churches don't want to support this couple for whatever reason, that is their right. To argue the fine points of maritual law is meaningless.

I personally wouldn't support them either. If they really in their hearts want to serve the Lord then they should be willing to take away any doubt about their relationship and make it legal and show that they are committed to each other for life. I might want to be a missionary overseas but if I expect to be allowed into that country I will need a passport. I can find no Biblical reason for this but the reality is what it is.

 

[jprieto]

Here is Romans 13:1-2
Seems to me that Paul is saying that those who have the rule over us are there because God allows them to be there. Actually intends them to be there. Laws are for our benefit. And marriage laws fit that category.

True.

Governments are backed by God.
Obama is outlawing prayer in the white house, in school, in courts ... we should obey him.

Voiceof the Martyrs are trying to get people to secret read the bible, and by doing so they rebel against the governemt --- we must get the recommendation of Tom Butle that Governemt officials are to be listened to and obeyed (sadly, Paul never got this right -- he kept preaching when the government kept telling him to stop. Well, Paul will pay for that sin one day!)


Back to the couple ..... we are christians! We cannot allow a loving couple to spread love, to spread the gospel of Jesus, and to lead some to a genuine walk with Jesus ..... just like SALTY said, their ministry is not to be endorsed nor supported ...... we got to stop them! We are christians, for God's sake, they have to be stopped!

 

[jprieto]

this is so cool
christians discrediting the ministerial work of other christians
and most favor not endorsing an evangelical ministry
so cool

Thank God we are baptists .... else such mninistry would be allowed to flourish!

Viva the Baptists!!

We are surely scoring high points with God -- so cool --
I like this religion .... if it wasn't for the policy of harrassing other christians, our denomination would be boring .. right?

We need a Baptist in the White House .... let's make this country an exciting one -- we got too many un-married people preaching the word .... thats not good for our denomination .... let go back to the witch hunt era, it was more fun back then

 

[Aaron]

I was not born for another 3 years so i can't really comment first hand about what went on, but my grandfather is Dr. Everett (Sileven) Ramsey. My father was the associate pastor of Fath Baptist Church at that time, and my mother (Everett's daughter) a school teacher at the school. Wow, I didn't realize that people actually knew about this.

Well I'll be . . .

 

[thomas15]

......Back to the couple ..... we are christians! We cannot allow a loving couple to spread love, to spread the gospel of Jesus, and to lead some to a genuine walk with Jesus ..... just like SALTY said, their ministry is not to be endorsed nor supported ...... we got to stop them! We are christians, for God's sake, they have to be stopped!

No one is stopping them from spreading the gospel. Unless of course they are under house arrest and being denied the ability to communicate with others in the outside world.

 

[John of Japan]

Aha!
That is the point they want to make:

Why cant Christian see the good that they do (glass half full) rather than focus on a legality distraction (glass half empyty)?

They trumpet the legality, but fail to praise the mission.

Time is running out on all of us, God is on a univeral mission to reconcile creation to Him. Why then get in the way of those choosing that path?

My side favors embracing God and serving in His worldwide mission, while many rather stop everything and distract attention to that which God has not made judgement on.

I've seen pastors refuse volunteers simply because they did not have a certificate of baptist hanging on wall ... now are we to stop this couple simply becuase they also dont have a marriage certificate hanging on their wall?

Jesus disciples did that all the time: constantly getting in the way of those moving toward a closeness to Jesus.

No wonder Jesus looked outside his disciples to minister to the Gentiles.

If God embrace, why pull back those walking into His arms?

I am ashame of fellow brothers and sisters who insist on compliance with a legality rather than a genuine commitment to God.

This was the same reason Paul scolded Peter in public and called him a hypocrate (see Galatians).

Remember the scary warning Christ gave to those who get in the way of little ones. And as humbled and repentant believers wishing only to serve God we are His little ones.

I think you missed my point. Let me put it this way. If I as a missionary choose to have a tattoo in a clearly seen place on my body, to me it is not a sin. But to many people it is a sin. To actually have the tattoo done would cause some to reject my ministry, and actually hinder me from being a blessing and a help to those very people; in other words, it would hinder my service for Christ. So why would I do that? Why would I not instead choose to sacrifice my own preference and forego the tattoo so I can serve God better?

So if this couple has a true, Bible based conviction against registering their marriage with the government (personally I don't see how that is possible, but it's none of my business), fine and good. But if it's just a preference, they are hindering themselves from ministering to the people who oppose them on only that one issue.

 

[Salty]

Didn't say I would stop them - just not endorse them.

Think about it - they are not married - those that they minister to, will now think they do not need to get married. However, they may not be as spiritually mature and not take it as serious as the mentors.

Do it right!

... Does not Scripture tell us to obey the law of our land? Doesn't that make more sense, to do it the perscirbed way?

Unless Scripture forbids it

... Common law marriage is not "shacking up," and there is no state in which mere cohabitation for any amount of time defines a common law marriage.

At what point does a couple become a "common law" are they "shacking up" before common law takes affect? Bottom line, what is your definition of "shacking up"

In our state, if you present yourself as married you are, by common law, and if you split up it DOES require a legal divorce even though you have no marriage certificate.

Two caveats: in some parts of the world, many do believe the govt intrusion has become so bad they must as matter of concience not adhere to govt rules. So no marriage certificates, avoidance as long as possible of birth certificates, ss type numbers or id's, etc. In those cases I can see accepting the people's marriage as viable according to their, but not the state's, culture.

But there are other folks who just seem to want to rebel against any perceived authority. In their case, I would direct them to the story of Timothy. The law was fulfilled and he need not be circumsized, but he submitted to it so as not to have his ministry sidelined. Rebels should just get the license.

Some interesting points there. So jprieto, are you also against Birth certificates, death certificates, ect. I even previously mentioned drivers license - I was told it is illegal to drive without a license. did you know it is illegal to live together in Fla without being legally married?

I think nodak said it best folks who just seem to want to rebel against any perceived authority.


For a further biblical reference - check out Col 3:17 "and whatsoever ye do in word or deed" - another words, Christians are to be ABOVE reproach

 

[Allan]

this is so cool
christians discrediting the ministerial work of other christians
and most favor not endorsing an evangelical ministry
so cool

Thank God we are baptists .... else such mninistry would be allowed to flourish!

Viva the Baptists!!

We are surely scoring high points with God -- so cool --
I like this religion .... if it wasn't for the policy of harrassing other christians, our denomination would be boring .. right?

We need a Baptist in the White House .... let's make this country an exciting one -- we got too many un-married people preaching the word .... thats not good for our denomination .... let go back to the witch hunt era, it was more fun back then

Christians are not discrediting their ministry, they are.

Your speech about Baptists on this issue shows you don't understand the issue in question.. I can tell you of many Church of God, Assemblies of God, Lutheran, and other denominations who would tell you the same stuff. This isn't a Baptist thing.. this goes across the board because it is a biblical and Government one. Viva la Christianity!!

If we are to be accused let it be for the sake of righteousness and to give no reason for the enemy to blaspheme nor be a rock of stumbling or offense to other believers. On top of that you have the laws of the land which Christ and the Spirit of the Living God stated we are to follow and obey, unless they contradict or go against the express Word of God. For them, in the least on this issue, to not do so in accordance with our laws, places them in open and rebellious sin and they need to openly repent.

These people, according to you, are doing this to make a point.. That says enough right there. It doesn't matter what is right, what matters is that they cause division over an aspect that can removed and set to nothing the unity of believers that could be given to them.. all for their personal opinion and not the glory of the Kingdom of God nor to the growth and edification of brothers and sisters in Christ.

To me, they stand in sin, so for me, it isn't an issue of coming along side them, it is an issue of prayerfully bringing them back to repentance

 

[jprieto]

Good news friends!!

A few friends of theirs -- none of them christians, nor church people -- after reading this thread, thought thought that this couple's ministry has proven itself so legit that they will be helping out. Boxes of Bibles and Witnessing tracts will be ordered soon. And another lady who was born into a "catholic" family, but has never seen a bible or been to church, found it offensive that christians who stand in the way of this couple, and so they volunteered to help in any way possible.

Wow, God works so fast.

I was worried for them because they seemed naive to believe that christians were going to rush to help them. Not helping them is understandable. Those not endorsing them is another thing that they will have to take up with God on judgement day.

As for me .... yes, I will help -- and help a lot.

You see, I was talking about myself. The couple is me and my other half.

And no, I will not register it in court because....

Its brings into the open those not praising God for the result of the ministry.
My ministry will be endorsed and supported by the "Paul"s of the world, not the Peters.

I have been in ministry personally since 1975.
Had led gang leaders to Christ.
Had led many angry people to Christ.
Had led many business people to Christ.
Have led many drug dealers to Christ.
Had led many christians to Christ.
Have left fortunes for God.
And daily I seek to be more like Him.
I am the greatest of all sinners, greater than anyone here, but ....
I will continue to submit to the Spirit of God, and humble myself before my Lord, and will continue to serve and serve, spreading the gospel, and teaching the doctrine of love, til my last second on Earth.

And should anyone, whoever he or she is, cross my path in ministry to the lord, he or she can count on my endorsement, and will offer my full support within my resources, and praise them publicly ..... so that souls can be saved, and saved souls can hear the call of servitude, and nothing, and no legal issue, will ever get me to back off.

I am for God, and of God, and nothing else matter to me other than the preaching of Jesus Christ. Satan cannot use any legality to stop me.

Satan knows that to get to me he would have to use his most powerful tool: fellow christians! For nothing else will stop me from loving God, from loving you, and from feeding my hunger to serve Him, to rescue lost souls, and love and love and love.


And for those who would not endorse me on this, remember this: Peter was used of God to raise the dead, heal the sick, and do other great miracles .... nevertheless, it was the open mind, loving heart, and embracing arms of Paul that God was able to use to spread the word and plant many churches. Peter was never open to that.

Be a Paul.

Christ said that is is by our love that others will know that we are of Him.

There is nothing loving about focusing on a legality and overlooking that fact that the Spirit is obviously moving and results are evident.

We are not talking about people living together for the sex of it. We are talking about people living by a hole covenant made before God, and kept of much higher seriousness than most who sign a court paper.

There is a sad doule standard among believers:

Lack of a legal paper is focused upon,
yet infidelity of pastors who are legally married are covered up often.

I say look at intents

if intents are looked at then those unfaithful pastors will be exposed, and those who are truly faithful praised.

Be a Paul.

I truly and sincerily love each and every one of you .. whichever side you took.
Im not here to divide, but to bring a message of unity, and should any of you serve to get others saved, and the saved reconciled, you can count on me on that ministry, regardless of who you are, or how you do things. I am in the business in serving God, and like Paul, I do not want to discuss any thing other than the spreading of the word and the service to the needy -- all else if left to God for the purpose of judging!

Be like Paul.

You will never regret it.

Love you all!!