NOT the Grace that God effectually applies towards us to save us!
CAN decide to sin though , even after being saved!
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Must all true fandamentalisls be Non-Calvinistic? Yes
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
NOT the Grace that God effectually applies towards us to save us!
CAN decide to sin though , even after being saved!
Robert Snow
New Member
They are called antonyms.
HUH!!! Are we not all Christians? What's this sides thing your talking about? Is not Christ all of our Lord & Savior?
This is the crux Robert of what I am trying to communicate....we should be less concerned about the minute differences in beliefs & more concerned about both the salvation & the lives lived in poverty & depravity of the world.
Like we have both John of Japan & Rippon serving as missionaries abroad. One is IFB & the other Reformed Baptist....both are serving the Lord. God bless them both for their courage & dedication to Christ!
seekingthetruth
New Member
Why is the "Reformed" missionary serving? If God has already predestined those people over there to be saved, why do they need any man to tell them that?
John
preacher4truth
Active Member
Have you never read 2 Timothy 2:8-10 to see the elect motivated Paul to preach and to also suffer for preaching? He knew they were out there. So do Rippon and others including myself.
Paul was also a missionary, and an apostle and was obviously "reformed" as he wrote about the doctrines via the Holy Spirit.
Tell me, what is predestination?
seekingthetruth
New Member
Yes sir, I am aware of the scripture, I just don't see how it applies to reformed theology.
And no, Paul was not reformed.
John
seekingthetruth
New Member
Predestination in the Bible refers to the coming events of the world. God predestined the birth of Christ, the establishment of the church, the coming of the anti-Christ, ect. It NEVER refers to individual salvation.
God has foreknowledge of our choice for salvation before we are even born, but He never took that choice away from us.
That is why sinners are punished. If they never had a choice, do you think a just God would punish them?
John
OK lets take this one step at a time......do you agree with this statement, Predestination tells us that His people will be "conformed to the image of his son."
I could give you my own answer: For the comfort and instruction of the Lord's people (Isa. 40: 1-2, 9; Eph.4: 11-16).
But you should ask him yourself...... his name on here is "RIPPON" & perhaps you should ask him (privately or publicly is your call).
preacher4truth
Active Member
Then you're just not wanting to see it. It's right there in the passage.
Paul's doctrine is from whence we get our doctrine, we call it reformed, DoG, Calvinism &c.
Because he believes God's purpose for his life is to use him to be the instrument by which those people hear the Gospel message that he believes they need in order to be saved. All of that is consistent with reformed theology.
2 Thess. 2:13 - But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
God chose them, He also determined that the way he would save them is by sending Rippon to tell them the message.
God ordains both the end and the means.
Calvinists do not believe God saves people apart from the Gospel!
In case any of you missed this important point:
Calvinists do not believe God saves people apart from the Gospel!
Calvinists do not believe God saves people apart from the Gospel!
Calvinists do not believe God saves people apart from the Gospel!
Calvinists do not believe God saves people apart from the Gospel!
Thank you 12 Strings.....exactly right but this brother should hear directly from RIPPON. Rips problem is that he is in a Communist country & they attempt to beat down any Christian activity esp communication on the internet. so anyone communicating with the brother needs to be patient.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Amen! :thumbsup:
seekingthetruth
New Member
Let's look at that whole verse in context.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Here we have the both the words "Foresaw" and "Predestinate". Augustine says: "There can be no predestination without foreknowledge; but there can be foreknowledge without predestination." I disagree with this whole heatedly. The terms foresaw and predestinate are not interchangable.
Foresaw simply means that God sees the future and knows who will believe and be saved. It doesn't mean God ordains that salvation, He simply sees it ahead of time.
Predestinate, what is God predestinating here? He is simply saying that those who receive salvation will conform to the image of Jesus.
The only thing that God decrees here is that those who receive salvation will confrom to the image of Jesus. Never does it imply a predetermined decision about an individual's eternity. This is another example of God predestining a coming event, the conforming of believers/the church into the image of Christ. Many argue that this passage is speaking of the church collectively. I don't see how this point is relevant because it takes individuals to make up the church. For the church to be conformed to the image of Christ, the individual members must be also.
See? This is what I have been argueing all along. Calvinism is based on faulty interpretation of scripture from the very start.
So yes, I agree, "Predestination tells us that His people will be "conformed to the image of his son." But your premise that God is predestinating individuals is wrong, He is predestinating the "act" or "event" of being conformed. He is saying He will conform believers to the image of Christ, an act, He is NOT saying he created them to have the image of Christ.
So yes, I agree, but not for the same reason that you do.
John
seekingthetruth
New Member
seekingthetruth
New Member
Actually, Paul talks about being "transformed" not re-formed, but nice play on words.
John
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seekingthetruth
New Member
How useless a reformed missionary must feel when he happens to be preaching to an individual or group that God did not predestinate to save.
Why preach to the elect? They can't be lost.
Why preach to the non-elect? They can't be saved.
And you call that consistent?
John
Let me add that if God really decides who He is going to save, He would save them with or without Rippon or anyone else.
How useless Christ musta felt hanging on the cross knowing what He was dieing for was dependent on fallen worlds recognizing his efforts & either accepting or rejecting Him......musta felt pretty inept.