Must all true fandamentalisls be Non-Calvinistic? Yes

[seekingthetruth]

You have not provided any evidence that the Lord Jesus is talking about races or nations here. I cannot see that in the text. He is simply talking to the people who were around Him, and by extension to us who read His word. Also, verse 40 has to be taken together with verse 39. 'And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of all that He has given Me, but raise them up on the last day.' This is saying just the same thing as verse 37. The Father has given the Son a people to redeem and He will redeem every single one of them (cf. also John 10:14-15; 17:2, 6).

This in no way negates verse 40. Everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life. We can and should preach to all men that if they will only trust in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, He will by no means turn them away. However, the ones who come will be those whom the Father has loved with an everlasting love and drawn to Himself with lovingkindnes (Jer 31:3; John 6:44).

Steve

Sorry, but you misquoted verse 39. You said "'And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of all that He has given Me, but raise them up on the last day."

The Bible says this:

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Why do you say it says "Them" when it clearly says "It"? Them refers to people but it refers to an object, in this case, a nation.

john

 

[Amy.G]

Yea then he clarified it in 44....No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. What do you suppose that means....

Also....see below "Were it not .....statement"

It means that God has revealed Himself to all people as Paul taught in Romans 1.

Also, in verse 45 Jesus quotes Is.54:13 in speaking to the Jews that they should know Him because they have been taught by God through the OT scriptures.

 

[jbh28]

Must all true fundamentalists be Non-Calvinistic? No!

This is why I don't engage with Van in discussions with this type of dialog he likes to engage in. Of course I did ask him a question to clarify something, but he resorted to name calling instead of just answering my question.

Adoniram Judson – Missionary
William Carey – Father of modern missions
John Bunyan – Pilgrim’s Progress
Charles Spurgeon – Famous Baptist Preacher “Prince of Preachers”
Luther Rice - - Missionary to India
John Newton – Hymn Writer “Amazing Grace”
Isaac Watts – Many hymns including “Alas! And Did My Savior Bleed?”
Jonathan Edwards – Missionary “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”
George Whitfield – Evangelist, big part of the Great Awakening
Augustus Toplady – Hymn Writer “Rock of Ages”
John Eliot – Missionary to American Indians
William Cowper – Hymn Writer “There is a Fountain filled with Blood”
Joseph Hart – Hymn Writer “Come, Ye Sinners”
Matthew Henry – Commentator
John Patton - Missionary
David Brainerd – Missionary
John Foxe – Foxe’s Book of Martyrs

 

[Rippon]

Sorry, but you misquoted verse 39. You said "'And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of all that He has given Me, but raise them up on the last day."

The Bible says this:

You mean what the KJ version says.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Why do you say it says "Them" when it clearly says "It"? Them refers to people but it refers to an object, in this case, a nation.

He didn't misquote verse 39,he just didn't use your favorite rendering of the text. This is a part of the NET notes regarding your claim:The plural pronoun "them" is used rather than neuter singular "it" because this is clearer in English,which does not use neuter collective singulars in the same way Greek does.

 

[Luke2427]

I would suspect, since this is the case, some people would worry more about reaching these lost people rather than arguing points of theology.

I applaud your concern; I wish other Calvinists, like the one I responded to felt the same way you do.

I have read where some Calvinists don't actually see the need to reach out to the lost, since God will do it all independent of our actions.

If I were a Calvinists I would have great difficulty reaching out to the lost with verses such as John 3:16. How could I tell them they could come to Christ, since I don't know if they are part of the Elect or not.

You don't know what kind of evangelism my church is involved in. You don't know whether or not I am aggressively reaching the lost for Christ.

The fact of the matter is that my church is one of the fastest growing churches in our county.

I have baptized about 50 in five years.

And that has nothing to do with the prison ministry I am involved in where I have personally led more than 20 to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

We are right now preparing to enter into a building program in our church.

So this comment, like almost every one of yours, is baseless, unwarranted, uninformed, irrational, ignorant, emotional banter.

It is people like you who are the biggest haters of the Doctrines of Grace.

The fact that that is so ought to be a mark in our favor.

 

[Don]

Yes & I apologize. sometimes this topic just makes enemies of us & I get mean spirited about it.

While this was to Amy, if my responses, both here and in our PMs, offended you, I offer my apologies.

 

[Don]

Don....your battle is not with most Calvinist, but rather with "Fatalists" . Here is what most Calvinists support....

Predestination is always about *people* not *events*. Notice the words "we" "us" "whom" and "brethren" in scriptures pertaining to Predestination (Eph 1:11-12, 1:3-6 & Romans 8:29). This is a huge point and please do not miss it. God did not predestine all things that transpire but He predestined all whom He foreknew. And here is where people really get confused. Some say that God predestined everything we do, even the sin that we commit. Now, THAT would make us mindless robots and would make God the author of sin.Now, there are some things God “decreed” to happen when they did (as the first and second coming of Jesus) but that is a completely different subject. Predestination is only concerned with the destiny of the elect. So, just leave it right there, cause that’s where it belongs.:godisgood:

Actually, it's not "my" battle; while I didn't address anyone in particular with what I wrote in post #62, it was directed toward those that are mistakenly lumping all calvinists into one group.

Your last line is monumental toward understanding the "general" calvinist. Thanks.

 

[12strings]

I'm a little behind the flow of argument by now, but here goes.

Why preach to the elect? They can't be lost.

-Because we want to be obedient and we want to be a part of What God is doing in the world.

Why preach to the non-elect? They can't be saved.

-We don't know who they are, and so must be obedient to preach to all, being comforted that God WILL have worshipers from every tribe and nation. He said so

And you call that consistent?

-Yes, Obedience is the motivation, joy of seeing someone come to Christ is the motivation. What is not motivation is thinking that God somehow NEEDS me to do something he could simply not do any other way.

Let me add that if God really decides who He is going to save, He would save them with or without Rippon or anyone else.

-He COULD, but has decided that it is through the foolishness of preaching to save sinners.

-Also, let's turn it around, If God did not turn people's wills to him, but really wanted to give every person an equal chance at hearing the Gospel, he could simply send them all bible's immediately, or visions from angels telling them who he is. He does not do this. Why?

 

[seekingthetruth]

12 strings:

You mentioned the joy of seeing someone come to Christ.

Do you ever wonder if that person is really one of the elect, and that the conversion is real?

What if the person really wants to be saved, but he is not on God's list of predestined elect, what then?

As far as preaching to the non-elect just to be obedient to God, i don't believe that God would waste time on useless agendas like that, why in the world would God command you to preach to people He is not going to save anyway?

Surely if God commands us to preach to the lost, then there has to be some degree of personal will in order to respond to the preaching.

John

BTW, the only Calvinist Baptist church i have ever set foot in did not believe in evangelism of any sort. They said it was a waste of time.

 

[seekingthetruth]

12 strings wrote:

"-Also, let's turn it around, If God did not turn people's wills to him, but really wanted to give every person an equal chance at hearing the Gospel, he could simply send them all bible's immediately, or visions from angels telling them who he is. He does not do this. Why?"

Joh 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

Because the nation of Isreal actually walked the Earth with Jesus in the flesh, and they saw Him perform many miracles, but they still did not believe.

Magically appearing Bibles and visions from angels wouldn't convince man that Jesus is God. I believe that this is why God lets us depend on faith, because physical evidence still won't make us believe.

John

 

[12strings]

You mentioned the joy of seeing someone come to Christ.
Do you ever wonder if that person is really one of the elect, and that the conversion is real?

If as the Bible says, they were at one time at emnity with God, and are converted, they are no longer at enmity with God but trust and love him.

What if the person really wants to be saved, but he is not on God's list of predestined elect, what then?

The Bible says "no one seeks God." A belief in the depraved sinful state of man believes that no one seeks God on their own. The reformed belief takes this verse to mean that apart from election and irresitable drawing, NNE would even want to come to God on their own. God graciously chooses some to draw and save, and uses people who preach the gospel to do it. If someone wants to come to Christ, it is precisely BECAUSE God has overcome their natural rebellion to him to draw them.

As far as preaching to the non-elect just to be obedient to God, i don't believe that God would waste time on useless agendas like that, why in the world would God command you to preach to people He is not going to save anyway?

That is a good question, but I don't think rejecting Calvinism solves it. If God knows the future, Why does God command us to preach to people he knows will not accept it of their own free will?

Surely if God commands us to preach to the lost, then there has to be some degree of personal will in order to respond to the preaching.

John

-I believe the Bible says that God chose me before the foundation of the world. It also says I must choose him or perish. I think they are both true.

-Some (not all) Reformed Believers would say that only Adam had "Free" will to either choose God or Not. He chose sin, and so now our wills are in bondage to sin (not totally free).

BTW, the only Calvinist Baptist church i have ever set foot in did not believe in evangelism of any sort. They said it was a waste of time.

That is a shame.

 

[12strings]

Magically appearing Bibles and visions from angels wouldn't convince man that Jesus is God. I believe that this is why God lets us depend on faith, because physical evidence still won't make us believe.

Every calvinist would agree with this.

The point I was making is that God DOES give some people much more opportunities to hear the Gospel than he does others. Some do not hear at all. Is this not in effect, God choosing not give them an opportunity to be saved?

 

[Amy.G]

God graciously chooses some to draw and save, ..........

Our God is a God of purpose. He does nothing without purpose and meaning. Why do you suppose He only chooses "some" to draw and not all? What is His purpose for this?

 

[jbh28]

Our God is a God of purpose. He does nothing without purpose and meaning. Why do you suppose He only chooses "some" to draw and not all? What is His purpose for this?

In other words, what's God's purpose of creating someone that He knows will end up in hell. He could save them He has the power to and the sufficient payment has been made.

 

[seekingthetruth]

In other words, what's God's purpose of creating someone that He knows will end up in hell. He could save them He has the power to and the sufficient payment has been made.

Yes jbh, that is exactly what I would like to know.

John

 

[Amy.G]

In other words, what's God's purpose of creating someone that He knows will end up in hell. He could save them He has the power to and the sufficient payment has been made.

No. That is not what I asked. Go back to my question and answer it with a Calvinist perspective.

 

[jbh28]

No. That is not what I asked. Go back to my question and answer it with a Calvinist perspective.

That's exactly what you are asking. You asked why he chooses some people to be saved and leave the rest to take their deserved punishment. We all have the same issue. Unless one believes that God CANNOT save everyone(which would mean God isn't omnipotent) then that means that God created people knowing that they will end up in hell.

 

[jbh28]

Yes jbh, that is exactly what I would like to know.

John

I have no idea. The universalist ignores it by saying God will save everyone. But neither of us believes that.

 

[Amy.G]

That's exactly what you are asking. You asked why he chooses some people to be saved and leave the rest to take their deserved punishment. We all have the same issue. Unless one believes that God CANNOT save everyone(which would mean God isn't omnipotent) then that means that God created people knowing that they will end up in hell.

So, you don't have an answer. I have yet to get an answer to this question from a Calvinist.

I am not a Universalist. I believe salvation is offered to every man but not everyone will accept the gift. God created us in His image with a will to choose or reject Him. Those who accept His gift of salvation are those who will love God for all eternity, because love is volitional, not forced.

 

[jbh28]

So, you don't have an answer. I have yet to get an answer to this question from a Calvinist.

I am not a Universalist. I believe salvation is offered to every man but not everyone will accept the gift. God created us in His image with a will to choose or reject Him. Those who accept His gift of salvation are those who will love God for all eternity, because love is volitional, not forced.

ok, so you still have the exact same issue. Why does God create people he knows will end up in hell?