"... must worship Him in ... truth."

[skypair]

Actually if you read the responses on page 1, no one was offended given the source.

Good one, Brandon!! :laugh:

skypair

 

[skypair]

I hope you will allow me to correct you on your view of "Calvies" as you call them, seeing God's perfect love only for themselves. They don't. They believe that Christ died for His people, that is, actually to save them. Joseph was told in Matthew 1.21: "You shall call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins." He Himself said in John 6.37: ""All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." But "Calvies" witness and preach the gospel, because they, like everyone else, have no knowledge of who the "all that the Father gives to Jesus" are, and anyway they seek as you do to fulfil the Great Comission.

I'm sure I've left a lot out, and that there are others who could express these truths far for clearly than I have, but I hope it is of some help.

David --- thank you for your thoughtful response. But when you say "died for His people," isn't that just another way of saying that God didn't love the non-elect? And weren't the "His people" in Mt 1:21 comprehended to be the Jews?

"God so loved the WORLD..." all you other mockers. We don't go out and witness because we don't know who the elect are -- if they are elect, God will get them to heaven anyway. We go to all the world because God loves the whole world and "is not willing that any should perish but that ALL [and not just the Calvie "all" either!] should come to repentance."

This is the TRUE image of God. If we worship a God who loves only the "elect," then we do NOT worship Him in truth. Can I have an "AMEN!?" Anyone God ever hated did something to deserve it!

Did God EVER create anything that wasn't innately GOOD?? That He didn't love? That didn't come to corruption on account of this world?? Y'all need to "recalibrate" your "scopes" before you are going to hunt for good theology! :laugh: God loves ALL His creation!

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

On second thought sky, forget about the dinner invitation, i'm sure neither of us would enjoy it. This is truly a sorry thread! :tear:

 

[DeeJay]

I'm glad you said that, DeeJay. I've recently come accross a good definition of love --- He who truly loves desires the best, only good, for the object his love. Think about that. Think about God willing to see everyone saved and then compare that to God condemning most of humanity. Which God is "perfect love?'' Seems Calvies see God's perfect love only for themselves, doesn't it?

I am not a Calvinist, so I agree with you. My problem with your post is not your objection to Calvinists. It is your lumping them in with Mormons and saying they are not saved. There is a huge difference between not understanding Gods love for us and how he gives that love, and having an completly different god.

No, of course not. We are all immature when we are born again -- we grow. I'm just saying that mature, "educated" believers should realize they are not worshipping in truth so it would be better to not worship untruthfully at all until they have the true, biblical image of God sorted out.

If our salvation does not require us to be 100% correct in doctrine, then your entire thread is mute. Correct me if I am wrong about your OP but you were saying that Calvinists are unsaved because they do not worship in truth. Did I misunderstand your point in the OP.

And no doubt in my mind that Jesus offended some too -- for their good if they wisely receive rebuke.

skypair

This thread is not compairable with what Jesus did.

 

[skypair]

On second thought sky, forget about the dinner invitation, i'm sure neither of us would enjoy it. This is truly a sorry thread! :tear:

C'mon, rb. Let's don't get personal. Let's look at the facts. Let's stick to the topic -- God's love. worshipping in Spirit and TRUTH.

Do you believe that if you mischaracterize God you are actually worshipping Him?? Think about it and please try to be objective.

skypair

 

[skypair]

I am not a Calvinist, so I agree with you. My problem with your post is not your objection to Calvinists. It is your lumping them in with Mormons and saying they are not saved. There is a huge difference between not understanding Gods love for us and how he gives that love, and having an completly different god.

OK, I was trying to "soften the blow" but it obviously had the opposite effect. I was trying to set beside the Calvinists a parallel that they would obviously reject. I could have said "Arminianism" and they would no doubt be more agreeable, right?

If our salvation does not require us to be 100% correct in doctrine, then your entire thread is mute. Correct me if I am wrong about your OP but you were saying that Calvinists are unsaved because they do not worship in truth. Did I misunderstand your point in the OP.

Absolutely NOT!! I was saying that they -- most of them -- have been led away from the gospel that saved them to another gospel like Paul said of the Galations. Believers are accepted tho wrong but they ought to be shown that they are NOT building on Christ and the apostles with "gold, silver, and precious stones!"

This thread is not compairable with what Jesus did.

Well, enough people have told me that I am not Jesus so that I must agree with you. I'm a poor communicator with a valid point.

skypair

 

[DeeJay]

Absolutely NOT!! I was saying that they -- most of them -- have been led away from the gospel that saved them to another gospel like Paul said of the Galations. Believers are accepted tho wrong but they ought to be shown that they are NOT building on Christ and the apostles with "gold, silver, and precious stones!"

Ok, I think most people took the OP as saying that Calvinists were not saved. You did compair them to Mormons. That is like saying that anybody who believes in post trib are like Muslims. Kind of gets people worked up.

As for Gods love. I believe Gods love is an action. The action of dieing of the Cross. I believe that Jesus died for all men, and if we choose to place our trust in Him for salvation, His His reward will be substituted for our punishment.

I hope that does not make me like the Mormons, because I have already been one of those. :laugh: I did not like it the first time.

 

[Allan]

I don't know about you, but I find comparing christians to mormons is offensive.

I agree.

Though Sky does it here toward the Cals
We see Rippon doing the same thing toward the Non-Cals (mainline Christianity) in another thread.

Should we all be equated with Catholics also because we believe Mary was the mother of Jesus?

A shallow and quick glance can see what one desires to see, but a deeper look reveals the imagination was incorrect.

 

[skypair]

Ok, I think most people took the OP as saying that Calvinists were not saved. You did compair them to Mormons. That is like saying that anybody who believes in post trib are like Muslims. Kind of gets people worked up.

As for Gods love. I believe Gods love is an action. The action of dieing of the Cross. I believe that Jesus died for all men, and if we choose to place our trust in Him for salvation, His His reward will be substituted for our punishment.

I hope that does not make me like the Mormons, because I have already been one of those. :laugh: I did not like it the first time.

You know --- there may be some Mormons saved and gone back to their church as well. Years ago I visited my church's missionary to Sandy, Utah. He had a small church in the middle of town. Saved a lot of folks. But I don't doubt that some wanted to marry Mormon women or men and "took it on the doctrinal chin."

My point was merely beware the isms. Er... and worship God in TRUTH!

skypair

 

[David Lamb]

David --- thank you for your thoughtful response. But when you say "died for His people," isn't that just another way of saying that God didn't love the non-elect? And weren't the "His people" in Mt 1:21 comprehended to be the Jews?

"God so loved the WORLD..." all you other mockers. We don't go out and witness because we don't know who the elect are -- if they are elect, God will get them to heaven anyway. We go to all the world because God loves the whole world and "is not willing that any should perish but that ALL [and not just the Calvie "all" either!] should come to repentance."

We tend to think of the beginning of John 3.16 as meaning, "God loved the world so much that . . . " (I've even come across a bible version that translates it as, "This is how much God loved the world.") But I understand from those who know New Testament Greek that the word translated into English as "so" there actually means "thus" or "in this way." It's the same word that is used when Jesus is teaching His disciples to pray, and He says in Matthew 6.9: "In this manner, therefore, pray." With that in mind, John 3.16 means: "This is the way in which God loved the world: He gave His only begotten Son, in order that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Don't all Christians believe that?

Incidentally, I must put right another false impression I seem to have given, when I wrote:

But "Calvies" witness and preach the gospel, because they, like everyone else, have no knowledge of who the "all that the Father gives to Jesus" are, and anyway they seek as you do to fulfil the Great Comission.​

I certainly didn't mean that "Calvies" have as their reason for preaching the gospel the fact that they don't know who the elect are. Rather, I was answering your earlier post in which you had said that Calvies want to keep God's love to themselves.

This is the TRUE image of God. If we worship a God who loves only the "elect," then we do NOT worship Him in truth. Can I have an "AMEN!?" Anyone God ever hated did something to deserve it!

I gladly say "Amen" to your words, "Anyone God ever hated did something to deserve it!" Over and over again, the scriptures tell us that we are all sinners. We all deserve the wrath of God, not His mercy. "Elect" and "election" are bible words, so what do they mean? Colossians 3.12-13 gives an idea:

12 ¶ Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;
13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.​

We know from the beginning of the epistle that those words are addressed to "the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse", in other words, to Christian believers. So I cannot say "Amen" that God loves the elect and non-elect.

Did God EVER create anything that wasn't innately GOOD?? That He didn't love? That didn't come to corruption on account of this world?? Y'all need to "recalibrate" your "scopes" before you are going to hunt for good theology! :laugh: God loves ALL His creation!

Yes certainly, God saw everything that He had made, and it was very good. But then came the fall in the Garden of Eden. Romans 9.13-16 give an example of God hating:

13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.​

That wasn't because Jacob did good things and Esau evil, for in verse 11, Paul wrote:

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls).​

The gospel is surely, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." I have heard plenty of modernist "theologians" say that all this talk of sin and needing to be saved is just picture-language. But don't all true Christians, Calvinist and non-Calvinist alike, believe those gracious words to the Philippian gaoler in Acts 16.31?

 

[skypair]

John 3.16 means: "This is the way in which God loved the world: He gave His only begotten Son, in order that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Don't all Christians believe that?

Really David --- changing the meaning of "so" doesn't change the meaning of "world" for me. He still loved and it still says He loved the world in contradistinction to what Calvinism believes.

I gladly say "Amen" to your words, "Anyone God ever hated did something to deserve it!" Over and over again, the scriptures tell us that we are all sinners. We all deserve the wrath of God, not His mercy.

Including infants then?

"Elect" and "election" are bible words, so what do they mean?

Colossians 3.12-13 gives an idea:

12 ¶ Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;
13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.​

[/quote] Yeah, but what about this "Love thy neighbor as thyself?" Are you saying only if he/she is "elect?"

Yes certainly, God saw everything that He had made, and it was very good. But then came the fall in the Garden of Eden. Romans 9.13-16 give an example of God hating:

Yes, but He still loves all His creation until it sins. He doesn't hate infants, right? And even those that sin, He still loves and draws. Calvin finds no place for such love IMO.

skypair

 

[DeeJay]

You know --- there may be some Mormons saved and gone back to their church as well. Years ago I visited my church's missionary to Sandy, Utah. He had a small church in the middle of town. Saved a lot of folks. But I don't doubt that some wanted to marry Mormon women or men and "took it on the doctrinal chin."

My point was merely beware the isms. Er... and worship God in TRUTH!

skypair

I know it happens. There is alot of pressure put on people to stay in "The Church". I know husbands whos wifes have divorced them for not staying in the church and vice versa.

My wifes parents disowned her, though later they just decided to treat us bad instead. My mother-in-law told us that since our children were not her eternal family she did not want anything to do with them. Again she latter just decided to not pay as much attention to them as her other grandchildren.

Would that be Mountain Side Church in Sandy, Utah. I have heard good things about this church. It is growing fast.

 

[skypair]

DeeJay,

I don't recall. That was 1980 when I worked for Braniff and laid over in SLC. I went through the LDS presentation and tried to convert an elder there. Tears came to his eyes when I told him that God didn't want his obedience if He couldn't have his heart. Older man, too, but so immune to the Spirit. raying:

skypair

 

[DeeJay]

God didn't want his obedience if He couldn't have his heart.

I am going to use that quote. :thumbs: