Mutual submission

Just a few thoughts.

I submit to my husband because the Bible tells me that this is God's order for the family. This doesn't mean that I should debate, cajole, argue, try to change his mind, huff around the house, pout or in any way try to get my way when I don't agree. I see the only place a woman would not have to submit to her husband is if he asked her to sin.

This means in practice that if he decides we should move, I'll be packing!! He has only made a few requests of me. When I follow his wishes there is a peace and true contentment in the home. I wear my hair long because he prefers it that way. He tells me my hair is beautiful. What a wonderful thing. I am transitioning into wearing dresses only because he wants me to. Now, when I have a dress on when he comes home from work he complements me. Again a wonderful thing! He wants me to wear a headcovering but he knows this is difficult for me so right now I cover it in prayer only. He is fine with this arrangement. I let him lead on where we should go to church etc.

Do we talk about things? Yes, all the time. But he knows that this is not a debate because I will follow him. He does value my opinion and I am free to give it. Most of the time when I am not wanting to go along with him, I find that I am in rebellion in my heart. Is he ever wrong? Yes. But it is not my place to point it out unless it is sin. I pray every day that the Lord will bless him with wisdom and prosper him at work. I have the trust that the Lord gives him the wisdom I ask for! : )

To say that I submit and obey him does not make me a doormat although many might see it that way. When I submit to my husband it frees him to become the leader the Lord would have him be. If I rebel against God's orders on this, I am a stumbling block to my dear husband and a hindrance to him growing in his roll in the family and in his walk with the Lord.

We have a great home life. He trusts me to take care of everything here on the home front. I do the finances, pay the bills, medical expenses. Do the shopping, errands, home school etc. I make all the decisions on these matters because he knows that I am capable and can take care of it the way he would want. I don't have to ask him on every little decision but I do check with him if it's a larger purchase or whatever. I also make sure to check with him before I invite friends over for dinner or before I want to go somewhere in the evening. It is just courtesy to do this.

I've read a few good books on the subject: "The Excellent Wife" "Me, Obey Him?" and one that isn't Christian but was really helpful was "Fascinating Womanhood." (When my husband read parts of "Fascinating Womanhood" he was surprised and kept saying "THIS IS SO TRUE!!")

I am at peace and thank the good Lord that I have surrendered to my husband's lead. God does bless us when we follow his commands and let the rebellion go. Submit and He will bless!!

 

Just my two cents: Lost spouse or no, there are many decisions that need to be unanimous. Something like a move, the purchase of a house, etc. Both need to be in agreement. If one doesn't agree, then the decision is "no".

 

(I posted this in the "pants" thread, but I think it's more appropriate here, so I'm copying, editing, and pasting...)

A few things about Eph 5:22:

1 - The verbage in greek is not "wives submit to your husband as to the Lord.", it is "wives to your own husband, submitting to the Lord", which means that spouses are to submit to each other as they do to the Lord.

2 - This is backed up by v21, the often overlooked line right before this verse: "Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God." (also ranslated, "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ", though the word is theos, not Christus).

3 - The Greek word hupotassomai does not connote obeying one who has authority over you as a child to parent, slave to master, or a military leader over ranks (otherwise, v21 would not make proper sense in Greek). If Paul had wanted a to use a word that meant submission of authority, he would have used the word he used in Ephesians 6:1, hupakouo (Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right), or peitharcheo, as he did in Titus 3:1 (Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good). The Greek word hupotassomai connotates a voluntary, willing and active cooperate with, supporting and tend to the needs of.

4 - Neither Eph 5:21 nor Eph 5:22 has anything to do with a woman choosing to wear pants, especially when she feels it is modest for her to do so.

 

So John, the husband is to submit to the wife.

 

If the Husband wants to move, but the wife doesn't, then the answer is "no". If the wife wants to move, but the husband doesn't, then the answer is still "no".

This is not a matter of one submitting to another, it's a matter of both submitting to each other.

If the husband feels there is reason for the family to move, then he has an obligation to share his feelings about it with his wife, and be open to her input. In doing so, they can come to a mutual understanding and a decision both are in agreement with. If the husband forces his wife to partake in an action she is not in agreement with, the husband is abusing Eph5:22, which results in a sinful action.

 

Helen, if you don't answer the question, I am assuming you don't know the answer or don't want to post it.

Say they pray for hours a day, and they still believe the same way they started. What do you do? Does the decision of the husband (saved or unsaved) to move carry more weight and thus the final decision over the wishes of the wife?

 

Helen, this is not about my marriage. Why did you assume it was? This is something people have to deal with.

My dad is lost. My mom is saved. She knows certain things because she is saved. When she believes something is God's will, does she do that or what my dad says?

 

Ephesians 5:21-22:

NIV
Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.

NASB
and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ. Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

AMPLIFIED
Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One). Wives, be subject (be submissive and adapt yourselves) to your own husbands as [a service] to the Lord.

ESV
submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

NKJV
submitting to one another in the fear of God. Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

YOUNG
subjecting yourselves to one another in the fear of God. The wives! to your own husbands subject yourselves, as to the Lord...

DARBY
submitting yourselves to one another in [the] fear of Christ. Wives, [submit yourselves] to your own husbands, as to the Lord...

Johnv, your personal interpretation does not hold water. I submit that you interpret it that way because you want to.

 

Now, to the issue of "mutual submission", the Bible does not even hint at such an idea.

1 Cor. 11
But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

This is the divine order of things. This is the revealed will of God. Anything that is contrary is sin. Mutual submission is contrary. Mutual submission is sin. Consider:

God
Christ
Man
Woman

Christ always submitted himself to the Father.

The man must submit himself to God by submitting himself to Christ.

The woman is to submit to God by submitting to Christ by submitting to her husband.

To carry the argument of the "mutual submission" advocates, Christ could at times submit to man and the Father sometimes submit to the Son. Besides going against Scripture, it doesn't even make sense.

 

PReach the Word,
Great post about God's order. As a woman who is part of that order it was not easy for me to accept at first either.

To Mrs. Eky, Thank you so much for your testimony.

HCL

 

Absolutely correct,Preach the Word. I think some get an idea in their minds from wherever,and become fixated on it,thinking it is Truth,when in reality,they are avoiding the power of God's true relevant Word for us. It doesn't matter what *works* for you(meaning anyone),God's word is clear on these issues.

 

What did Paul mean when he said, "submitting to one another in the fear of God (Eph. 5:21)?"

There are two possibilities:

1. Paul was summing up his instruction from the previous verses in regards to church members and how they act toward each other when they come together (in other words, they set the "rights" of others above their own).

2. Paul was giving about to explain how the submission order is accomplished. In other words, Paul gives the divine order of submission. He then gives three examples of what he means by submitting to one another:

Wives submit to their husbands.
Children submit to their parents.
Slaves/servants submit to their masters.

Now, if the "mutual submission" advocates had their view carried out, then the following would be Paul's teaching also:

Husbands submit to their wives.
Parents submit to their children.
Masters submit to their slaves/servants.

Does everyone see the confusion this kind of thinking causes? The person who decides what is the one with the greater will. Thus, submission is a moot point.

Johnv, earlier you said that if the wife does not want to go, they don't go. You are wrong. The wife is to submit to her husband as the church submits to Christ.

Christ NEVER submits to the church. When someone can prove that Christ submits to the church, the mutual submission theory might have an argument. Until it does (and it never will), the theory is a subtle form of rebellion.

Finally, to go to God in "prayer" when the direction has already been given is questioning God's divinely established order. Therefore, the "prayer" many times is an excuse to cover the secret sin of rebellion.

[ November 27, 2002, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Preach the Word ]

 

Christ NEVER submits to the church. When someone can prove that Christ submits to the church, the mutual submission theory might have an argument.

Christ submitting to the church is prevalent in his display of washing the feet of his desciples. He sums it further by telling them, "I no longer call you follwers, but friends". Add to that, if the crucifixion is not the ultimate submission, I don't know what is.

Now, back to Paul, using the logic Paul tells women to submit to their husbands. He tells the husbands to love their wives. In that same context, he DOES NOT tell the wives to love their husbands. So why to?

...Paul was giving about to explain how the submission order is accomplished...He then gives three examples of what he means by submitting to one another: [Wives to husbands / Children to parents. / Slaves/servants to masters].... if the "mutual submission" advocates had their view carried out, then the following would be Paul's teaching also: [Husbands submit to wives / Parents to children / Masters to slaves/servants.
(forgive my editing there. Trying to keep this thread easy to read) In my earlier post, I touched upon the different greek words used for submission. The greek word for spouses is different than for children and servants.

Johnv, earlier you said that if the wife does not want to go, they don't go. You are wrong. The wife is to submit to her husband as the church submits to Christ.
But the husband is not to force a wife to submit as though he were Christ. That would be an abuse and misuse of Eph5:22

Finally, to go to God in "prayer" when the direction has already been given is questioning God's divinely established order. Therefore, the "prayer" many times is an excuse to cover the secret sin of rebellion.
Oh, I must disagree wholeheartedly. God welcomes prayers of "are you sure" just as much as he answers others.

[ November 27, 2002, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

Then why are these verses in the bible? Seems you forgot some.

Try and make it say whatever you want, but I'll go with what it really says.

 

But,God requires obedience,not a prayer of should I obey what you have already stated in your word,of course you should....if we struggle with submission,it is fine to ask God for His grace to allow you to obey....but asking God if this is what we should do,even though my godly husband thinks it is....this is avoiding being submissive,don't you think?

I'm not saying this is always an easy thing for me,I have had to learn a ton about this because I had never been taught the Truth in this area until the last 4 years or so....I still can tend to make my point known,pout,or manipulate---this is part of the curse that Eve received in the garden....to rule over her husband....but I am constantly having to be renewed by God's word and I let THAT control my thinking.

I have also asked my husband to hold me accountable in this area;to say if I am speaking disresepctfully or being unsubmissive in my speach,attitudes,or actions. His reprove is a wonderful thing to me because I see how God is using that to sharpen me and make me more like Christ.

I have to also brag on my husband...he follows scripture,too...so he lives with me in an understanding way....he cherishes and loves me like Christ did the church,he talks very openly with me at all times(we are very close),he loves to hear what I think about things....He leads our family spiritually in family worship time,out loud readings,morning prayer time....he disciplnes the children,he requires that the children honor and respect me...he knows he is responsible for how he does these things,so he is committed to doing them wholeheartedly,even with his strenuous work schedule...we study God's word together and pray together....he teaches me what the word says....he does these things because he loves God,first...and me second. I submit to his leadership because I love God first and him second. We need to understand the submission issue as much about obeying God as anything...not so much based on your husband and what kind of man he is...although it is a joy to have a man loving God and leading his family to do the same.

God is good.