Mutual submission

Hi Helen,

Clearly, you have the correct biblical definition of submission. I think one the major problems is that submission in English infers tyrannical rule, which biblically it is far from. I would wager a good part of my deep-fried Thanksgiving turkey that your husband has never required you to do something simply because he wished it and expected you to follow. Rather the opposite, he sounds like the husband who would move heaven and earth to provide for you. Likewise, you'd probably do the same. No doubt, you'd never abuse his love for you, and he'd never abuse your submission to him.

Now if the rest of us could just learn by your example....

 

My, my, how people love love to twist people's words on here, so it's not just scripture, it's anything you read just so it says what you want it too.
So I assume this is too me becasue it is posted next after mine.

You seem once again to misread my posts. I did not say I was spiritual head of the family. Nope you didn't see me say that. Nor did I say I make most of the decisions. What I said was sometimes his decision is right, sometimes mine is. Should we go the wrong way, take the wrong path just becasue it is his decision? I don't think so, sounds irresponsable to me. Just like I said in the matter of finances, God has given me the right knowledge to know at a moments notice what I ahve and what I can do with it. My husband has no idea how to figure out bills, and whats left or even write a check, ballance the check book. But I could hand it all over to him, and let him try, but he wouldn't know where to start, and nothing would get paid, and he would deposit his pay check becasue he doesn't know how, and then he's be broke, and the bills would be unpaid. If God has given me the ability, then it is my strength, not my husbands. But on the other hand, my husband has streengths I do not have and I am not involved in any decisions there, like what to do with the car, or mowing he yard, buy a mower, among other things. Would you ignor the strengths God has given. A wife is to be a helpmeet(a helper to her husband), not a mindless slave, living in subjection and fear, ggaged and chained,unless you believe women are not as smart as their husbands, in that case I might need him to teach me how to brush my teeth, and wash the dishes.

 

I think it depends on why each of them thinks the way they do. If he wants to go just for the heck of it and has no real reason, no word from God, then he is wrong. What is also wrong is not considering the whole family when making this decision. You seem to believe that the husbands decisions are right no matter what just becasue he is the husband. Thats can't be further from the truth. A husband is not infalliable just becasue he is the husband.(sounds kind of catholic to me) And for a wife to allow bad things to happen to her family when she could have helped the situation is irresponsable. Women are not rugs under your feet. And yes, if you are going to be in a discussion of marriage, then it includes yours.

 

Katie....you are funny...I was just asking a question. I was not meaning anything other than trying to understand what you were saying. Some men do not lead and allow their wives to,or the wives feel forced to for whatever reason. I have friends who have felt that way before. I completely understand how you can do things better than your husband...my husband knows there are certain things I am better at,also...but with all the things you mentioned,I was wondering if you felt like you made most of the decisions. So,there wasn't oppurtunity for biblical submission. That's all.

In my case,my husband is much smarter than me,wise and book smart,both! That doesn't mean it is any easier for me to submit,I still have to be renewed by the Word and allow it to control me,instead of what Molly thinks!

[ November 27, 2002, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: Molly ]

 

Not submitting because we don't think he is making a good or right decision is allowing fear to control us instead of God. God's ways are best,he knows what is best through our husbands,that's how He chooses to work in the family.

I haven't always felt this way either...it has been a learning process that I am still in!

 

A wife is to be a helpmeet(a helper to her husband), not a mindless slave
More to the point, someone who is at her husband's side. Next to him. Not below his, not above him. Even the act of taking Adam's rib speaks to that. The rib, again from the side of adam, to be his equal, not his underling.

Not submitting because we don't think he is making a good or right decision is allowing fear to control us instead of God.
Yet, submitting to something that is clearly an error is failure to take accountability.

If we're playing the "what if" game, what if your husband wants to purchase a new vehicle that you know is clearly out of your budget. Do you sign the loan paperwork, thus jeopardizing your own credit risk? Even if he buys it without you, and he defaults, you're equally responsible for the debt.

[ November 27, 2002, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

Isn't that sin when he is financially adding debt that can not be paid? We are to submit unless he is asking or leading us to sin.

 

Some here would have you believe otherwise. Thats obvious.

Ok, Molly, how about a few weeks ago when I found out omo was making plans with my brothers wife for Thanksgiving. her and my youngest brother are over there today, noone thought to include me, even though her( the wife) family id there. When I told my husband, he was very angry that they excluded me,and told me to tell her to get someone else to take her to the store and doctor from now on. My mother or yougest brother do not drive, I am her only transportation, except on the rare occasion my oldest brother finds the time to take her. What would you do? Leave you mother with no way to get tot the doctor and get her prescription refills? Well thast about sick. Nope. I went and took her, and later my husband said I'm glad you didn't do what I told you too.

His decisions are not always right just becasue he is the man here. HE is not infallable, you might think your husband is, but I prmise you( from scripture) he is not.

 

Submission and mutual submission.

Until I met my wannabe man, I can honestly say there has never been a man I feel I could willingly submit to as a Christian woman. Either they were slack with their spirituality, or they had very dogmatic controlling issues that dealt with women. Or, they were big wusses that couldn't make a decision and stand by it.

My wannabe man now, I feel I could willingly submit to him on decisions, and do so now in areas that it is appropriate. In the same right, he is mutually respective of me. Plus, he is mature enough as a Christian to be the leader in our family--if that ever happens.

I think I would move with my husband. I think back to a case a few years ago when I was going on a Ukraine mission team. That year, we were splitting into two teams. My pastor (and boss) wanted me to go with the other team, not his team, to help with leadership and attitudes because he was hating to have to split the team. I was basically the "pawn" to help build others up on the team and make it more of a positive thing. I didn't want to go with that team. I wanted to go with my pastor's team. I told him I would do whatever, but I didn't want to go with the other group. As it got closer and closer, I felt even more worse about having to split off. And I told him. I begged him not to split me off. I cried in his office. But, he said he needed me to go with the other team.

I did. I had a good experience. I learned a lot. I grew. I was submissive. And even though both the pastor and I felt that splitting the team was not the best thing in the big picture, I feel that my submission to my authority was blessed by God in spite of it not being "the best situation". I think God allowed some things to be learned, to take place, to be understood, that wouldn't have normally taken place.

 

In the same right, I think if I and my wannabe man were in a major debate, and we both felt strongly in opposite directions, though I would give in to him, I think he would be dramatically hurt if I didn't feel leadership to move. He and I both operate on making sure our attitudes are right... and I think he wouldn't arrogantly push his agenda on major issues such as that. We would talk things through.

 

And you know, I would do anything I could for my man. I am what many people consider a "strong woman." Whether that means "very dependable", "strong willed", or "don't cross her on a PMS day", or all of the above, I don't know.

But, I tell you, I would do anything for my man, but my man would do anything for me, too.

 

Now you got me started.

 

Ehpesians 5

15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

This section is clearly speaking to the Christian church in general, and vs 21 is clearly in conclusion of this passage. It is addressed to the church in general, and not to the relationship between husbands and wives in particular.

The church submits one to another in the spirit of I Corinthians 8 and Romans 14. The submission here is in regard to questionable matters that some believers think are sin. The instruction is not to vaunt our own wills and "knowledge" over those of the weaker brethren, for "if we sin so against a brother, we sin against Christ."

No where is a husband commanded to submit to his wife. The wife is to submit to her husband. That is God's revealed will and design.

All the cavils about men abusing their power is irrelevant. I could just as easy get out of my obligation to love my wife by saying women aren't to be nagging and bossy. After all, isn't it easier to love a submissive woman?

 

I abhor being nagging and bossy.

 

Thank you Helen.

 

Katie,I see your point...your husband was speaking out of anger towards that situation...when my husband gets angry or irritated about something,I ususally give it some time,too. He may come back with different ideas or repent for his anger. But,the issue of submission does not change over situations...and it is okay to give a biblical appeal to your husband...you can communicate biblically and talk about what he has said and give reasons why you think you guys should rethink something. But,I think the appeal should be asked once,and whatever he decides should be the way to go.

For example,one evening my husband came home from work,we ate dinner and he wanted to go to a basketball game. He wanted the girls and I to go with him. I knew the game would be over after their bed time,and they were tired from the day....and I am pregnant,so I was not feeling really good...so I expressed these things to him...it was not being unsubmissive,it was an appeal that maybe this would not be a good night to go,but I did say whatever you think we will do,though. Of course,he said,okay...if you are not feeling good tonight,we will go another time. I think this is biblical communication,the wife is still submissive,but she can speak and give her opinions,appeals,and also biblcal reproof when sin is involved.

I think what I would've said to your husband was,"I know you are angry about this,but,maybe...we need to talk about it later when you are not so upset. I really think we need to reconsider since my mom relies on me,etc.

 

This is the divine order of things. This is the revealed will of God. Anything that is contrary is sin. Mutual submission is contrary. Mutual submission is sin. Consider:

God
Christ
Man
Woman

I think it's more like this:

God
|
Christ
|
Man - Woman

 

Mutual submission is sin

If your reference is Eph 5:22, then so is mutual love.

If you're speaking of the Bible as a whole, then not only is mutual submission a requirement, so is mutual love.