Mutual submission

That would be rewriting the Scripture and totally ignoring its authority. I will also add that this is exactly what egalitarians must do to try to prove their position from the Bible. No Johnv, the best chance egalitarians have for proving their position is to keep people ignorant of Scripture and rely totally on culture.

 

Johnv, it is sin because of two reasons:

1. It is not taught anywhere in Scripture. Headship and submission is taught throughout Scripture.

2. It counters the revelation of God on the issue.

Jesus taught headship and submission and Paul simply echoed Christ.

 

That would be rewriting the Scripture and totally ignoring its authority. I will also add that this is exactly what egalitarians must do to try to prove their position from the Bible. No Johnv, the best chance egalitarians have for proving their position is to keep people ignorant of Scripture and rely totally on culture.</font>[/QUOTE]I disagree; this model seems to be supported by Eph 5:21.

Funny thing about woman submitting, though, is that much of the arguement seems to be made by men. It should be pointed out that husbands are not instructed to require or even expect their wives to submit, yet from the arguements here, you'd think the opposite. To borrow from JFK, this section of Ephesians is not about what your spouse can do for you, but what you can do for your spouse.

 

Johnv, I realize you disagree; that is why I keep posting Scripture. You are using Eph. 5:21 to interpret 1 Cor. 11. I gave two interpretations of Eph. 5:21 that are valid. You have not interacted with them that I know of. It is interesting to note also, the major translations put a period after Eph. 5:21 indicating they believed it ended a thought (which I posted on the third page of this thread).

Your interpretation makes no sense. According to you, Paul said to submit to one another (assuming this is about marriage). Then he says for the wife to submit to her husband. That makes no sense. Please explain that. I see two possibilities:

1. Paul was filled with wine and not the Spirit and thus incoherent to give authoritative instruction.

2. Paul was saying for wives to submit to their own husband in verse 22 and verse 21 was written as an introduction to the various ways submitting to one another would take place (wife to her husband - children to their parents - slaves to their masters).

Btw, you are totally ignoring 1 Cor. 11.

Paul specifically said that the head of the woman is the man. They are equal in nature but the man is the head in role. You might not like this talk, but you cannot twist Scripture to meet your belief system.

 

{b]Your interpretation makes no sense. According to you, Paul said to submit to one another (assuming this is about marriage).[/b]
It is about all Christian relationships. Marriage is one of them, and is not exclusive of it.

Then he says for the wife to submit to her husband. That makes no sense. Please explain that.
You referenced 1Cor 11, and if you read it carefully, you'll note that is says a man cannot be without the woman, and woman without the man, if they're to be in the Lord (1Cor11:11). It also says that, since woman came from man, she has the additional task of supporting the man, and as such, is given power that the man does not have (1Cor11:10). Therefore, Paul's instruction for women to submit to their husbands is his attempt to bring equal balance to marriage, not make man the person with greater power. Come to think of it, Paul doesn't discuss authority at all in the Ephesians verses, but spiritual headship, two completely different things. However, if you take a look at v 25, Paul clearly uses Christ's giving himself for the church (which in itself was an act of submission) as an example of husbands giving themselves to their wives. (Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it)

I see two possibilities:

1. Paul was filled with wine and not the Spirit and thus incoherent to give authoritative instruction.

Not likely

2. Paul was saying for wives to submit to their own husband in verse 22 and verse 21 was written as an introduction to the various ways submitting to one another would take place (wife to her husband - children to their parents - slaves to their masters).
I could agree with v21 being an introduction to examples of submission, but by the time you get to v25, you see clearly that submission of both to each other is biblical.

Btw, you are totally ignoring 1 Cor. 11.
It looks like I've covered it now.

Paul specifically said that the head of the woman is the man. They are equal in nature but the man is the head in role.
No, they are equal in nature, and woman allows the man to be her spiritual head using Christ's example. Paul did not give license to the man to place the woman under them. Husbands are not given this power.

You might not like this talk, but you cannot twist Scripture to meet your belief system.
No need, since it is my opinion that mutual submission is clearly biblically supported.

[ December 02, 2002, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

Dear PTW,
Another person may or may not have the correct interpretation, (you may not either), but it is a large assumption that the person is deliberately twisting Scripture.

Karen

 

Karen, I agree that such an assumption should be avoided. If you look again at my post, it says that "you cannot..." I was meaning that your belief should not dictate your use of Scripture. Thank you though, it is something we should all keep in mind.

Have a nice day.

 

With respect to all, I understand the differences in the way the PTW and I see on this issue. It seems both of us are able to validate our arguements with scripture, though we interpret scripture differently. I respect PTW's viewpoints on the subject, and am glad that my viewpoints are respected as well..