My church defined your church's bible

[Inquiring Mind]

2. Where did Jesus ask the disciples to worship Mary ?

Who worships Mary? I still don't get this accusation.

Really: to "worship" Mary would require that the *intellect* makes a firm decision to believe that Mary is Divine or that she created the world. Even the most uneducated catholic, I believe, does not make that kind of intellectual decision. Thus, Mary cannot be worshipped unless a person claims, with full intellect, that she is divine. Case closed.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

3. Why do you think there is no mentioning about your Holy Mother in Revelation ? Why is she not exalted in the judgment seat ?

First, you're assuming I claim her as Holy Mother, in which I deny. I do recognize that she should be given more honor then you are currently willing to give. She is Christ's mother afterall. There could be no Christ without Mary. I believe at least the RCC recognizes the woman in Rev 12 as being Mary as well as representing Israel. Why should she be exalted in the judgement seat?

 

[Inquiring Mind]

4. So, why did Paul mention about Mary simply saying a Woman ? How much disrespectful was he about your Holy Mother ?
Read Gal 4:4 " made of a woman ( came out of a woman)

So what if he used the term woman? In the day the term Woman was a term of respect, unlike it is today.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

5. So, are you claiming that Mary is our Mother ?
Why did Jesus say to John " thy mother" indicating Mary ? ( Jn 19:27)

26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

One must look at the event in it's reality. A man about to die on the cross who previously was scourged to near death would not utter in such a profound way but just merely say : "John, care for my mother" if he only intended for John to care for his mother. But what does he do with his nearly remaining last breath?

Woman,1135 behold2400 thy4675 son!5207

Behold2400 thy4675 mother! 3384

seven words.

and then his actual last two words, a little less elaborate:

I thirst.1372

and

It is finished:5055

If your assertion is true that Jesus was only giving custody of his mother over to John, then it proves too much. Because it proves that Mary had no other children because Christ would not dishonor his Brothers and Sister(if they existed) by giving custody of Mary to a non-family member. It would have been very scandalous within the Jewish community if someone took custody of another's mother. The Brother's and Sisters(if they existed) would not have been able to "Honour thy Mother".

Even today, Orthodox Jews would rather die than give their mother up to the custody of a non-family member.

Jesus on the cross, takes the attention away from himself and directs it toward his mother.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

6. Who do you know is our mother ?
Listen to Apostle Paul :

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. ( Gal 4:26)
Does Paul talk about Jerusalem ? Read Galatians 4 carefully, you will find Paul is talking about Sarah, the freewoman.

Maybe you should read it again.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

7. Listen to Peter.
1 Pet 3:6
3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement

What does this have to do with Mary? I don't see the connection.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

8. Listen to the Lord Jesus


Matthew 12:

48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother!

What a Blasphemy to your Holy Mother, by Jesus our Lord ?

Not a problem, this is the discourse on the symbolic true family of Jesus.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

9. How did Jesus call Mary ? Read John 2:4 " Woman", Read John 19:26 " Woman" Why didn't He call her Mother ? He must have shown some good example for the people, right ?

In both accounts, Jesus addressed Mary by the term woman. In Hebrew the word used by Jesus was a term which would be addressed to a queen or a woman of high rank. It was a term of great respect.

But why did Jesus Christ address His Mother by the term woman at these two significant moments in His life — at His first public miracle, and at His Crucifixion on the Cross?

Our Divine Lord wanted to clearly indicate that His Mother was the Woman spoken of in the Book of Genesis:

“I will put enmities between thee (Satan) and the Woman, between thy seed and her seed, and she shall crush thy head.”

Christ neither said or did one thing that did not have a valid reason to it.

 

[orthodox]

If it was handed down from the apostles, why would people think that the Gospel of Peter belonged, or that Revelation didn't?

Because you can't see the shape of the world while you're 6 feet from it. You have to take a bird's eye view to notice it is a sphere. In other words you have to look at the consensus of the entire church.

How do you have a canon?

If you say "just look at the entire Church", then that is the "lowest common denominator" again,

It's not a lowest common denominator to look to obtain consensus. It is a common denominator, but could just as much be the highest common denominator, if you are willing to use concilliar consensus.

and purely retrospective as well.

Huh?

But the term "doulia" didn't belong to the Church for you to define it, it belonged to the Greek language, and the church (way after Paul, that is) apparently took it and put a new meaning to it to cover up the bona-fide "latreia" being given to others beside God. We are not discussing mere "service/servanthood", and the original definition is not "reverence" or "veneration"

The church can take common words and give them specific meanings. The word Deacon is a common word that means servant, but in ecclesiastical context it means something a bit more specific, and the church can define who is and isn't a Deacon beyond the mere attribute of serving. You can't just start serving people in the church and start claiming you must be a Deacon.

In the same way, in orthodox usage, doulia is the kind of respect you would offer to anybody in the church. We use the word that way, we will define our own terms thankyou.

 

[orthodox]

1. Is Mary the only woman blessed among women ?

Ge 30:13
And Leah said, Happy am I, for the daughters will call me blessed: and she called his name Asher


Jud 5:24
Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent

Uh yeah, Mary is the only one blessed among women and nothing in your quotes changes that. Jael is blessed among tent dwelling women, but that's hardly the same thing.

What did Jesus say about this blessed woman ?

Luke 11:27-28
27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it

I don't really think you can compare blessing body parts like Mary's womb and breast with blessing an actual person. Mary was someone who heard the word of God and obeyed it.

( Do you want to teach Jesus that He should have said, Mary is so special and the more blessed than any other woman and we must call her Mother of God, and must worship Her as our Blessed Mother ! ?)

Of course not. That would be heretical.

2. So are you still claiming that Roman Catholic existed when Paul mention Timothy about the Bible in 2 Timothy 3:15-16?

I'm not sure what you mean by Roman Catholic. The Catholic church existed, and Rome was one church within it. Does that answer your question?

 

[Eric B]

Because you can't see the shape of the world while you're 6 feet from it. You have to take a bird's eye view to notice it is a sphere. In other words you have to look at the consensus of the entire church.

How do you have a canon?

It's not a lowest common denominator to look to obtain consensus. It is a common denominator, but could just as much be the highest common denominator, if you are willing to use concilliar consensus.

>and purely retrospective as well.
Huh?

I don't think so. If it was a tradition handed down from the apostles, everyone would know about it. How would some be able to take away from the books or introduce these other books and not be unanimously opposed? You say "consensus of the entire Church", but that is not a consensus, so what it seems to be is mob (majority) rule, then.

The church can take common words and give them specific meanings. The word Deacon is a common word that means servant, but in ecclesiastical context it means something a bit more specific, and the church can define who is and isn't a Deacon beyond the mere attribute of serving. You can't just start serving people in the church and start claiming you must be a Deacon.

In the same way, in orthodox usage, doulia is the kind of respect you would offer to anybody in the church. We use the word that way, we will define our own terms thankyou.

But at least the Church's use of "deacon" fits the Greek definition. With doulia, you have added a completely different definition (only remotely related) and you can maintain the right to define whatever you want, but you are still simply renaming latreia, no less than calling a cat a new type of dog.

 

[Eliyahu]

Who worships Mary? I still don't get this accusation.

Roman Catholic worships goddess, which is labeled as Mary, even though Mary never knew about such paganism!

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Roman Catholic worships goddess, which is labeled as Mary, even though Mary never knew about such paganism!

No, niether the RCC or EOC do worship a goddess. They worship God just like you do. Only your twisted mind says they do. Have you ever attended a RCC or a EOC service? I have, I saw not one iota of the supposed goddess worship which you claim. If you had attended a service, you would know your own accusation is based in complete ignorance and unstableness of the mind.

 

[Eliyahu]

I want to summarize the problems with Roman Catholic, which you may be calling Orthodox.

1. Mary Worship, Mariatology
This is a goddess worship, which has been traditional and very much classic throughout the history. Roman Catholic decorated it with Christian label, naming the goddess as Mary, Maria, but its origin was from Ashera, Astarte, Artemis, Aphrodite, Venus, Diana, Shingmu ( in china), etc. which was strictly condemned by God in the Bible.
RC all the time denies that they are worshipping Mary, but they do for Mary more than what they do for the God. If you watch channel 9717 CLAND, catholic channels you can find they are mad in adoring the statue of Mary.

2. Weekly Sacrifice - Mass, which denies the eternal effect of Christ Redemption at the Cross, Once for All.
Ever asking forgiveness, but never bringing the fact and truth that the sins were already forgiven at the Cross.

3. Papacy
This seats the human being where Jesus Christ should sit.
This is groundless title according to the Bible. Many true believers predicted Anti-Christ will come in this title.

4. Purgatory

Most of Catholics confess that they should go to Purgatory first, before they go to Heaven. They are to some extent honest in confessing that they are not qualified for the heaven.
Even the Robber at the Cross went to Paradise directly.
How miserable the Roman Catholics are !

5. Clergy system and Compulsory Celibacy
This is groundless as we know Apostl Peter had his wife, 1 Tim 3 tells us that the Overseer ( Bishop) can be a husband of one wife.
This may be originated from Chemarims ( Zephaniah 1:4)
This contradicts with 1 Pet 2:5-9 which tells us that all the believers are the holy priests.

 

[Eliyahu]

No, niether the RCC or EOC do worship a goddess. They worship God just like you do. Only your twisted mind says they do. Have you ever attended a RCC or a EOC service? I have, I saw not one iota of the supposed goddess worship which you claim. If you had attended a service, you would know your own accusation is based in complete ignorance and unstableness of the mind.

Goddess worshippers do not realize what they are doing as Jesus said this:

" for they know not what they do " Luke 23:34

You can watch Catholic chanels like CLAND 9717 on the dish network and find the Catholics are mad with worshipping idol statues! Even Pope John Paul II was crowning the statue of Mary. Can the ceramic statue speak anything ? Read Isaiah 40-50

 

[Inquiring Mind]

You can watch Catholic chanels like CLAND 9717 on the dish network and find the Catholics are mad with worshipping idol statues! Even Pope John Paul II was crowning the statue of Mary. Can the ceramic statue speak anything ? Read Isaiah 40-50

Yes I have seen that. That is not worship. It is just an honouring of her rightful place as Queen Mother as established by Solomon, the Gehbirah(gebirah). I joined a jewish forum and asked the question of whether or not they would recognize the mother of their prophesized Messiah as the Queen Mother. They responded yes they would.

I ask you what is Worship?

 

[Eliyahu]

Yes I have seen that. That is not worship. It is just an honouring of her rightful place as Queen Mother as established by Solomon, the Gehbirah(gebirah). I joined a jewish forum and asked the question of whether or not they would recognize the mother of their prophesized Messiah as the Queen Mother. They responded yes they would.

I ask you what is Worship?

Truly born-again Messianic Jews condemn Catholics as Pagan, Idol Worshippers.

If you still advocate the adoration of the ceramic statues as not Idol worship, I can tell you simply, that you are blinded with Idolatry.

Throughout the history, Idolworshippers never admitted that they are doing wrong. Read Jeremiah 44 which condemns worshipping Queen of Heaven

 

[Inquiring Mind]

5. Clergy system and Compulsory Celibacy
This is groundless as we know Apostl Peter had his wife, 1 Tim 3 tells us that the Overseer ( Bishop) can be a husband of one wife.
This may be originated from Chemarims ( Zephaniah 1:4)
This contradicts with 1 Pet 2:5-9 which tells us that all the believers are the holy priests.

Groundless? I believe the assumption is made that Peter's wife was deceased. Why? Think about it. Not one verse is attributed to an action of her or of a word of her. Don't you think that if Peter's wife was alive, there would be comment from her about the condition of her mother? Think about your wife(if you have one) and her relationship with her mother, wouldn't a daughter be tripping about the illness of the mother? Furthermore from 14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever. 15 And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.[/B] by Jewish custom and culture of the day, if Peter's wife was alive she would be the one administering to them instead of the mother. Culture and Custom!

But that is not issue.

Celibacy is. I for one understand this.

RCC law requires priests and bishops (but not deacons) not to marry. This is known as priestly celibacy. Priests and Bishops undertake this DISCIPLINE freely to express their wholehearted commitment to serve the both God and God's people.

The following four reasons are generally offered for this practice:

1. Paul noted that celibacy gives a person more freedom to serve Christ. Not having a family to worry aobut, a priest is both more free to serve others and more able to attach himself wholeheartedly ot the Lord.

2. Giving up a family is a concrete witness to the sacrifices in the name of the gospel asked by Jesus of someof his followers:

"And everyone who has left houses, brothers, sisters, father, mother, children or land for the sake of my name will recieve a hundred times as much, and also inherit eternal life"(Mt 19:29).

3. And perhaps the most important, by living as a loving celibate person, a priest is in reality pointing to eternal life where there will be no marriage. His life is a witness, in the middle of the ordinary affairs and concerns of the world, that we are all destined for union with God.

4. Finally, there is the witness of Jesus himself who did not marry so that he could be totally involved in doing God's will in serving others.

The EOC churches have permitted a different DISCIPLINE, allowing married men to be ordained as deacons and priests, though bishops are chosen from among celibates.

Other points of interest.

Paul himself remained unmarried and celibate.

Some reccomended scriptures:

Matt. 19:11-12 - Jesus says celibacy is a gift from God and whoever can bear it should bear it. Jesus praises and recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church. Because celibacy is a gift from God, those who criticize the Church's practice of celibacy are criticizing God and this wonderful gift He bestows on His chosen ones.

Matt. 19:29 - Jesus says that whoever gives up children for the sake of His name will receive a hundred times more and will inherit eternal life. Jesus praises celibacy when it is done for the sake of His kingdom.

Matt. 22:30 - Jesus explains that in heaven there are no marriages. To bring about Jesus' kingdom on earth, priests live the heavenly consecration to God by not taking a wife in marriage. This way, priests are able to focus exclusively on the spiritual family, and not have any additional pressures of the biological family (which is for the vocation of marriage). This also makes it easier for priests to be transferred to different parishes where they are most needed without having to worry about the impact of their transfer on wife and children.

1 Cor 7:1 – Paul teaches that it is well for a man not to touch a woman.

1 Cor. 7:7 - Paul also acknowledges that celibacy is a gift from God and wishes that all were celibate like he is.

1 Cor. 7:27 – Paul teaches men that they should not seek marriage. In Paul’s opinion, marriage introduces worldly temptations that can interfere with one’s relationship with God, specifically regarding those who will become full-time ministers in the Church.

1 Cor. 7:32-33, 38 - Paul recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church so that they are able to focus entirely upon God and building up His kingdom. He “who refrains from marriage will do better.”

1 Tim. 3:2 - Paul instructs that bishops must be married only once. Many use this verse to prove that the Church's celibacy law is in error. But they are mistaken because this verse refers to bishops that were widowers. Paul is instructing that these widowers could not remarry. The verse also refers to those bishops who were currently married. They also could not remarry. Therefore, this text has nothing to do with imposing a marriage requirement on becoming a bishop.

1 Tim. 4:3 - in this verse, Paul refers to deceitful doctrines that forbid marriage. Many also use this verse to impugn the practice of celibacy. This is entirely misguided because the Catholic Church (unlike many churches) exalts marriage to a sacrament. In fact, marriage is elevated to a sacrament, but consecrated virginity is not. Marriage is sacred, covenantal and lifegiving. Paul is referring to doctrines that forbid marriage and other goods when done outside the teaching of Christ and for a lessor good. Celibacy is an act of giving up one good (marriage and children) for a greater good (complete spiritual union with God).

1 Tim. 5:9-12 - Paul recommends that older widows take a pledge of celibacy. This was the beginning of women religious orders.

2 Tim. 2:3-4 - Paul instructs his bishop Timothy that no soldier on service gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim his to satisfy the One who enlisted him. Paul is using an analogy to describe the role of the celibate priesthood in the Church.

Rev. 14:4 - unlike our sinful world of the flesh, in heaven, those consecrated to virginity are honored.

Isaiah 56:3-7 - the eunuchs who keep God's covenant will have a special place in the kingdom of heaven.

Jer. 16:1-4 - Jeremiah is told by God not to take a wife or have children.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Truly born-again Messianic Jews condemn Catholics as Pagan, Idol Worshippers.

These Truly born-again Messianic Jews say otheriwse:

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/fam_jewish_catholics.html

http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com/alljews.html

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Issues 1 thru 4 need to be addressed threads by themselves. Since we are getting off topic.