my current church

[ronthedisciple]

I am beginning to see that I may a baptist in the minority here (it appears that the majority here are SBC). As a member of an American Baptist Church, we curently conduct a combined contemporary and traditional worship service each Sunday morning. The service begins with some popular contemporary praise music led by our praise band, followed by some traditional hymns, then the sermon and a traditional closure. It is our belief that there is no such thing as bad music, but bad lyrics. During the football season, we host a "5th Quarter" party following our local high school football games (when they play at home - our church is located across the street from the high school on one side and across the street from the middle school on the other side). We make use of a multi-media system to display song/hymn lyrics, to show missions films, display announcements and to assist the pastor's sermon with visual aids. Our church, as does the Great Rivers Region of the American Baptist Churchs USA with whom we are affiliated, supports the roles of women in leadership positions, including pastors and other ministers. Our church's boards and committees, including the Deaconate, consists of men and women. I have learned that one's stance on this depends on one's interpretation of Scriptures on the subject (and I do not wish to debate the issue). In our congregation, there are no criticisms about how people dress. We encourage our members to display their best for the Lord, but we also understand that what is the best for someone might be another's worst. Nearly a quarter of our congregation is comprised of people with disabilities such as down syndrome, cerebal palsy, mental retardation, autism, and others that I am not fully knowledgeable about. Our church consists of a wide range of economic groups - some are wealthy, some require state assistance. We are so happy that we can come together and rejoice in the freedom, joy and wholeness that being a servant of Christ brings.

Personally, I grew up in Mississippi, in a Southern Baptist Church. There are many similariities and there are some differences. I joined with this church before I even knew what kind of Baptist church it was, because I was called of the Holy Spirit to join with them and to serve with them, and that the only way I would be permitted to depart from them was if they asked me to leave through due process, or by being called to be with our Lord.

 

[ccrobinson]

Originally posted by mhoward1999:
ccrobinson, That's quite a tall order. How do you achieve getting to a place where you are neutral about it when things are so bad? just pray for God to change your heart?

Yes, it is a tall order. I don't mean to imply that this is easy at all. I can say from my own experience that there was a time that my wife and I should have left the church we were in, but my own pride got in the way of what I think God wanted me to do. Don't get me wrong. I'm not implying that I think you're prideful, but I'm giving an example of what I did wrong because I wasn't neutral about the decision to leave that church.

One thing I cannot be, however, is neutral.

I'm not advocating being neutral about your church. Or, at least, that wasn't my intent. My understanding was that you were considering whether to stay or not. If your preference is to leave, but God wants you to stay, then leaving would put you out of God's will. The converse is true as well. The neutrality is where you tell God, "I'll do whatever you want me to do" and you mean it. Then, God leads you to the decision he wants you to make and you follow through.

If I have misunderstood you, I apologize.

My intent is to help you, not to make it more difficult.

 

[mhoward1999]

ccrobinson, I understand what you mean. It's just a very hard thing. I can tell my head what to do, and every time I think differently, I can correct myself. But in my experience it takes either an act of God or years of effort, or both to change the heart.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

A feel good church is not always a Spirit led church. I am saddened to see so many leaving the old paths to conform to the worlds music and style in their worship.

We are in the world but not of the world, nor are we to be conformed to the worlds image.

 

[ronthedisciple]

I am saddened to see so many stubborn cling to traditions, that aren't nearly as traditional as the styles of the 1st, 2nd or even 3rd centuries of Christianity; who seem unable to see the joy of renewal that life in Christ can bring; who seem to have forgotten the prophecy that God shall make all things new; who cannot see the work of God in the world and remember that is His world. To not be conformed to the world means to not be conformed to the sinful nature (study Romans again). Why hold to old styles? They won't last any more than the new ones. Do you not see something inconsistent with trying to stand on the literal 1st century church and try to be American at the same time? (BTW - it can't be done - you cannot serve two masters.) To be Christian is to enter into a new family, into a new nation, into a new Kingdom - to be a new citizen. One must learn to cease being American (or whatever other nation you come from). One must learn to cease being rich, or poor, or bond, or free, or male, or female. In Christ we are all the same - beloved children of God.

 

[Trotter]

A feel good church is not always a Spirit led church. I am saddened to see so many leaving the old paths to conform to the worlds music and style in their worship.

We are in the world but not of the world, nor are we to be conformed to the worlds image.

True. But what we view as traditional was contemporary in its day, be it song or style.

As was said above, many equate their personal tastes as biblical. If we were to actually get biblical, then we'd meet in someone's house while hiding from the authorities, sing songs that someone there wrote (without music), and then leava singly so as not to arrouse any inkling of what went on there... sort of like China today.
==========================================

CarolinaBaptist, mhoward1999,

I feel for both of you. I've been in your shoes (though the circumstances were different). It is not an easy place to be.

If I may say one thing to both of you? Do not act rashly, and do not act out of trying to get it your way (be it church style or oganization). Move forward through prayer, both your own and your spouses/families. Lean hard upon the Lord, and follow where He leads.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[ronthedisciple]

Amen, Trotter.

 

[CarolinaBaptist]

Ron,

I agree with most of what you say, but I would be careful about giving God the credit for the CCM movement. I also do not see the correlation between holding traditional views of worship and serving two masters. Surely you are not saying that we should reject all traditions in the church are you?

 

[CarolinaBaptist]

Trotter,

Thank you for the advice. It is much appreciated.

 

[ronthedisciple]

Originally posted by CarolinaBaptist:
Ron,

I agree with most of what you say, but I would be careful about giving God the credit for the CCM movement. I also do not see the correlation between holding traditional views of worship and serving two masters. Surely you are not saying that we should reject all traditions in the church are you?

Not at all. But, sometimes we need to evaluate why we do what we do. What we call traditional today was contemporary only a century or two ago. And what was traditional for them was contemporary to another generation before them. What we call contemporary today will be traditional in the future. The Scriptures tell us that all things pass away, behold, all things become new.

As for giving God credit: I give God the credit for everything. Okay, some folks don't hold too well with some of the Christian music today. Personally, I sometimes wish that the critics could focus more on the person of Jesus Christ and rejoice in the praise that is being rendered to Him, and maybe spend a little less time weilding their Bibles like a football rule book, just looking for a penalty to throw the yellow flag out on. Life in Christ is not intended to be like that. But, enough on that...

Yes, I give God the credit. For what men may intend for evil, God shall make good. That's the moral of the Joseph story, and that is one of the morals of my own story. I spent 20 years in sin, bowing to its desires and callings, wallowing in a lifestyle that had no real value, no future and no meaning - just blind pleasure for lust's sake. But, God called me out of that. Christ has saved me from my sins (BTW - that's what He does - saves us from our sins - not from Hell. It's not about avoiding Hellfire, but about being restored to fellowship with God). Those 20 years God has redeemed. God's forgivenes does not erase my past, but transforms the meaning of it. While bond in sin, my life had nothing to offer, but through God's grace and rescue, God has made my evil into something that is good and valueable and worthy to stand in the light of His truth.

When we cling too tighty to traditions, we may be making those traditions the things that we live for, instead of our Lord. That's where the thought of serving two masters comes from. This being the beginning of a new year, perhaps it is a good time to review and reflect and pray and test our faith, and seek out the person of Jesus Christ - the source of true Life. Searhc the Scriptuers, study the Bible, therein you will find the pointers and the signposts that will show the way to Christ, but don't get lost in the book. Look for the Lord.

 

[mhoward1999]

Thank you, Trotter. At this point I am doing just that.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by mhoward1999:


Now, that said, I know that nothing I view as "traditional" worship would have been viewed as traditional even 300 years ago. I would love to attend a church that followed the Biblical standards for a church as far as outlining what worship is pleasing to God. Songs would be taken directly from scripture, etc. I would even like to attend church where they build the sanctuary to meet the directions for building the temple in the Old Testament.

The church for about 1000 years did not have music. When Isaac Watts began to have "contemporary" music many called it of the devil.

I would sure hate to be in the tabernacle during -20 degree weather or during the summer in 120 degree weather.

I wonder how many would welcome the action of instruments in Psalm 150 in their church?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Originally posted by ronthedisciple:
Not at all. But, sometimes we need to evaluate why we do what we do. What we call traditional today was contemporary only a century or two ago. And what was traditional for them was contemporary to another generation before them. What we call contemporary today will be traditional in the future. The Scriptures tell us that all things pass away, behold, all things become new.

When the scriptures talk about all things passing away, it is not speaking of God's Word. His Word will never pass away... Jeremiah 6:16 Seek ye out the old paths and walk therein.

As for giving God credit: I give God the credit for everything. Okay, some folks don't hold too well with some of the Christian music today. Personally, I sometimes wish that the critics could focus more on the person of Jesus Christ and rejoice in the praise that is being rendered to Him, and maybe spend a little less time weilding their Bibles like a football rule book, just looking for a penalty to throw the yellow flag out on. Life in Christ is not intended to be like that. But, enough on that...

The Bible is a rulebook and we must adhere to it's teachings.

Yes, I give God the credit. For what men may intend for evil, God shall make good. That's the moral of the Joseph story, and that is one of the morals of my own story. I spent 20 years in sin, bowing to its desires and callings, wallowing in a lifestyle that had no real value, no future and no meaning - just blind pleasure for lust's sake. But, God called me out of that. Christ has saved me from my sins (BTW - that's what He does - saves us from our sins - not from Hell.

Christ not only saves us from our sins, but He indeed does snatch our souls from hell in doing so.

When we cling too tighty to traditions, we may be making those traditions the things that we live for, instead of our Lord. That's where the thought of serving two masters comes from. This being the beginning of a new year, perhaps it is a good time to review and reflect and pray and test our faith, and seek out the person of Jesus Christ - the source of true Life. Searhc the Scriptuers, study the Bible, therein you will find the pointers and the signposts that will show the way to Christ, but don't get lost in the book. Look for the Lord.

When we conform to the ways of the world, by bringing their message into the sanctuary, we are walking on very dangerous ground. We must delve into the Word of God and find out what it says. If one truly is seeking God's will for one's life, one will find God does not want us hugging the world, acting like the world. We are pilgrims in a foreign land looking for a city whose builder and maker is God.

[ January 01, 2006, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: standingfirminChrist ]

 

[ronthedisciple]

Jesus rebuked the Pharisee for searching the Scriptures for life, when the Scriptures only tell of the One who gives life.

Paul teaches time and time again, the law serves only to expose sin, it does not bring us salvation and life.

If you are serving Christ because you don't want to go to Hell, I would highly suggest you seriously consider engaging in a concentrated period of fasting and prayer and supplication before your Lord.

Personally, I deserve Hell. There is no excuse for the pain I have brought upon my Creator. When I cry unto Him now, I say, "Have mercy on me a sinner." I used to pray, "Have mercy on me Lord," like most who seek to escape His judgement. But now I know my God loves me. He has given His all to save me - and in saving me I must face His judgement. I must admit that I had forsaken Him, and I must seek out His proclamation for me. Christ has saved me from much more than the fires of Hell - He didn't have to die to snatch me out of Hell - but He did have to die make my sins sin no more. That is my testimony of Jesus Christ. It is my prayer that you all shall know the wonder and majesty of His saving power in your lives - in every corner, in every relationship, in every thought and in every desire.

 

[gb93433]

James 1:25 "But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does."