Originally posted by HankD:
[QB] UZThd, men (humanity) have been bantering these things since He walked the earth.
Perhaps no earthly human language can exactly pinpoint every detail of the incarnation of the second Person of the Trinity.
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I agree
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I don't know about the word "changing" To be Scripturally correct I would have to say several things :
John 1:14 And the Word was
made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but
he took on [him] the seed of Abraham.
1Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
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We both agree that somehow Christ took humanity and "became flesh," "took the seed of Abraham," and was manifested in the flesh." I agree fully with that!
Where we disagree, apparently, is over the manner: whether that taking on of human nature required the Son as God to discontinue the use of divine attributes. IMO it did not because He exists in two spheres.
IF one says that on earth He existed only in the human , limited sphere because He was confined to a body, then is He yet confined?
Man is limited. That defines man in contrast to God.
So, is He yet Man? How so, if He now uses those attributes you say He for a time gave up. Is the body omnipresent? Will we be that too as our bodies will be like His?
But if He now is not so confined , then why could He not have been before not confined?
I don't think an appeal to "God can do anything" is a very effective counter.
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Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
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Quite so, but as Lightfoot points out about that very text ,it does NOT say that God is confined in that bodily form.
Do you think that body is omnipresent? But God is! Do you think that body is omnipotent? But God is! Therefore, that body does not contain all that God is. Otherwise when that body died, so would God die!
It does NOT say that the body IS GOD does it!
In His humanity He wearies at Jacob's well (Jo 4) ! But in His deity co incidentally to that very weariness in Samaria He holds the universe together, Col 1 ! Or did He stop doing that for 33 years?
Therefore, even on earth His omnipotence continues! But if His omnipotence continues allowing Him to hold the universe together, then why not His omniscience and omnipresence too?
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Some good objections, however there are Scripture which indeed indicate these limitations which He willingly imposed upon Himself.
Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
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Quite so. But IF divine attributes inhere IN the divine essence as Erickson and the other 20 or so theologians I regularly read say, THEN, a change in the use of attributes=a change in essence.
That is why I prefer to think of Christ as adding a complete human essence with a complete set of human attributes instead of saying that the Son as God could stop being what He is.
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Personally, I have difficulty in dividing Christ between his human and divine nature.
He Himself never says things like “my humanity thirsts” but “I thirst”.
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This objection is answered by postulating as I do two complete natures in one Person. You may have difficulty with that but Chalcedon does not.
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I don’t know but with God all things are possible including your view
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Not all things. Can He deny Himself?
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You use the example of our vision as illustrative of His omniscience. You say that His not exercising omniscience is like our closing our eyes.We really can see, we just for a while are not seeing.
However, we are not defined by our vision! We are defined by our limitations. Our limitations are why we are different from God!
God IS defined in Isaiah as omniscient. He there makes the test of divinity knowing ALL! If Christ as God, therefore, does not know all, then, He fails His own test!
But omniscience IS knowing all. It is not just the capability of knowing all. For your analogy to work as evidence requires that it can be shown that God CAN give up the use of the divine attributes and remain God.
So, if Christ as God does not know the time of His return but only the Father (not even the HS) does then there are (1) THREE minds in God, (2) the Son is qualitatively different than the Father (for a while), and (3) God can be God even if He is not omniscient or omnipresent or omnipotent for a while. And I disagree.
Neither did Christ say, I really DO KNOW, but I sort of don't too. He said unqualifiedly "I don't know."
That raises again my problem: Did the Son become human by ceasing to use divine attributes? Is THAT really humanity? Is that what we are?
How can the mind and will of God learn, be tempted, and be perfected?
OR did the Son become human by adding a whole new nature complete with a mind and will that is limited and it is these that such occurs?
BTW, you must disagree with Constantinople too not just the interpreters of Chalcedon, like Leo and Greg of Nazianzus, because Constantinople says that Christ has two faculties of will and that each nature has its own will.
Well, we must agree to disagree, but I appreciate your gentles spirit. Unless you or someone wishes to continue I'll sign off.
In summary IMO Jo 14:28 ONLY refers to Christ's humanity.
Bill
[ August 22, 2005, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: UZThD ]
