My First Run In With Obamacare...

[righteousdude2]

:wavey:That's right, folks; yesterday I went to my HMO to pick up a few refills, and when I arrived the line consisted of no less than 50 other members. The line snaked itself down the main entrance hallway, back down another hall that seemed to have no end in sight, and the tension was so thick that it could be cut with a freshly sharpened scalpel.

This was highly unusual, because our HMO is highly efficient, but, what happened to give all of us a glimpse of the future, should Obamacare go through and gobble up our HMO's strong qualities and assets, was frightening to say the least.

Actually, about 30 minutes prior to my arrival, a main fire door that separates the pharmacy counter area from the rest of the pharmacy customer service area, malfunctioned causing it to close on its own, blocking off 6 additional customer care counter spaces. What was left, was four customer care counter spaces to serve all of these folks, and the countless number of more arriving every minute.

If the Obamacare package goes through, what I went through yesterday, could be a realistic view of the future of medical care here in America.:tear:

Just thought I'd share a moment in time that could be our future. By the way, I stood in line for more than an hour, and the line had grown to more than twice the size of what it was when I arrived an hour earlier.

Happy New Year Forum Friends,

Pastor Paul:type:
Remove the Haze Ministries

 

[Johnv]

Well, if you had a PPO like me, you wouldn't have these problems

 

[FR7 Baptist]

So, because a door closed and blocked off four customer service counters, you compare it to health care reform. I fail to see your point here. That could happen to anyone. The government isn't taking over health care. No one is going to stop you from keeping your current plan.

 

[Dragoon68]

So, because a door closed and blocked off four customer service counters, you compare it to health care reform. I fail to see your point here. That could happen to anyone. The government isn't taking over health care. No one is going to stop you from keeping your current plan.

Read the fine print! Ponder the past experience of every government program and agency every constituted even with the best of intentions. Listen to the words of increased taxation to fund all this "wonderful" health care "reform". Do you like the service at the Post Office, when you get your driver license, or even when you go through jury selection? Do you enjoy filling out forms and handing them over to arrogant bureaucrats? You will pay more, get less, and have fewer choices and, if you complain, it will probably be a violation of some kind of "national security" law or rule.

 

[saturneptune]

So, because a door closed and blocked off four customer service counters, you compare it to health care reform. I fail to see your point here. That could happen to anyone. The government isn't taking over health care. No one is going to stop you from keeping your current plan.

Are you so limited in your forward thinking that you cannot see that this is the first step to a government run, single payer, system. Or is it that you just cannot help yourself parroting the Democratic line?

 

[FR7 Baptist]

Read the fine print! Ponder the past experience of every government program and agency every constituted even with the best of intentions. Listen to the words of increased taxation to fund all this "wonderful" health care "reform".

Yes, I know there will be tax increases for the rich. It's time that they pay their fair share.

Do you like the service at the Post Office,

Yes.

when you get your driver license,

No.

or even when you go through jury selection?

Never been called, although I'd love to serve on a jury.

Do you enjoy filling out forms and handing them over to arrogant bureaucrats?

No.

You will pay more, get less, and have fewer choices and, if you complain, it will probably be a violation of some kind of "national security" law or rule.

Not true. It adds more choices and if it had the public option would lower costs.

 

[Revmitchell]

Yes, I know there will be tax increases for the rich. It's time that they pay their fair share.

Only liberals determine what is fair to the rich. Fair share means steal from the producers and give it to the non producers.

Not true. It adds more choices and if it had the public option would lower costs.

No evidence of that.

 

[just-want-peace]

So, because a door closed and blocked off four customer service counters, you compare it to health care reform. I fail to see your point here. That could happen to anyone. The government isn't taking over health care. No one is going to stop you from keeping your current plan.

Paul, you know the custom in the OT of honoring the "gray heads" had a good reason!

I notice from your profile that you were born in '90, so before you get defensive and dismiss the comments of a lot of others here, just ponder the thought ---"What are their experiences that they have already worked through; can I learn anything from them, or will I have to learn from my own experiences??"

It's a lot less painful, embarrassing, and much more efficient to learn from another's experiences than to have to repeat them all over again on your own.

This one statement from you --

The government isn't taking over health care. No one is going to stop you from keeping your current plan.

just screams a lack of wisdom.

I would suggest that you read one chapter of Proverbs every day for one year, and then see how much your perspective has changed.

To put this concept in another perspective, consider the following, that most, if not all, of us oldsters can attest to: "When I was 15, my parents were the most ignorant parents that existed. By the time I was 25, I was amazed at how much they had learned."

 

[matt wade]

Yes, I know there will be tax increases for the rich. It's time that they pay their fair share.

Oh, give me a break. You are a complete fool if you think the rich don't pay their "fair share". I can show you pages of facts that completely destroy you utterly stupid statement.

How about this one that shows that in 2007 the top 1% (the richest of the rich!) paid 40.4% of all federal income taxes. Yes, that's right, 1% of the people paid 40.4% of the tax in this country. Is that "fair" enough for you?

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

You really need to get a grip on reality.

To the rest of the country, I promise you Jacksonville, Florida is not accurately represented by Paul3144. I apologize, from our City, for any grief he caused you.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

I notice from your profile that you were born in '90, so before you get defensive and dismiss the comments of a lot of others here, just ponder the thought ---"What are their experiences that they have already worked through; can I learn anything from them, or will I have to learn from my own experiences??"

Well, ole MP is 57, and he thinks that Paul is doing just fine. The Force is strong in this young one. Quite a bright guy, and obviously a lot smarter than I was at that age. Now I am tempered in my sage wisdom, and here to enlighten all who may seek the benefit of my years. :thumbs: raying:

 

[FR7 Baptist]

Paul, you know the custom in the OT of honoring the "gray heads" had a good reason!

I notice from your profile that you were born in '90, so before you get defensive and dismiss the comments of a lot of others here, just ponder the thought ---"What are their experiences that they have already worked through; can I learn anything from them, or will I have to learn from my own experiences??"

It's a lot less painful, embarrassing, and much more efficient to learn from another's experiences than to have to repeat them all over again on your own.

I do listen to what older people have to say and I've even said that I'm sure myself and my political views will develop over the years, although I doubt I'll do a flip-flop as I try to be consistent. Here's the deal, though: not all older people agree on political issues. I know older people who are hard right wing, bleeding heart liberals and everything in between. I pay a lot of attention to what they have to say and I take that into account. But at the same time, I have to take all of that and come to conclusions.

Also, I probably do need to tone it down a bit and I'll try to do that, but when people like Carpro say I should stick to counting people and calls me a flag-burner, etc., and that he likes to tell off Democrats to their face at some point I have to respond.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

I do listen to what older people have to say and I've even said that I'm sure myself and my political views will develop over the years, although I doubt I'll do a flip-flop as I try to be consistent. Here's the deal, though: not all older people agree on political issues. I know older people who are hard right wing, bleeding heart liberals and everything in between. I pay a lot of attention to what they have to say and I take that into account. But at the same time, I have to take all of that and come to conclusions.

Critical thinking is key. Validate all claims using reliable sources. Know how to sift out fact from propaganda. Learn about logic and fallacious arguments. You will do well, Paul.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Yes, I know there will be tax increases for the rich. It's time that they pay their fair share.

What is "fair share" ? America has the highest corporate tax rate of any country I know of. Tell me, what is "fair share" ? Because I have a business that hires, I have to pay a higher rate than a 6 generation welfare family ?

Comments like that take all the credibility away from liberal arguments.



And I've tried to engage you in the public option debate several times, yet you just keep repeating the same tired fable. You don't want to reduce costs, you just want someone else to pay for it.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

What is "fair share" ? America has the highest corporate tax rate of any country I know of. Tell me, what is "fair share" ? Because I have a business that hires, I have to pay a higher rate than a 6 generation welfare family ?

Comments like that take all the credibility away from liberal arguments

And I've tried to engage you in the public option debate several times, yet you just keep repeating the same tired fable. You don't want to reduce costs, you just want someone else to pay for it.

I was talking about personal tax rates. We've had marginal tax rates as high as 94% in 1944 and '45. No one wants to go back there because it would stifle people's motivation to earn income. All I'm suggesting is rolling back the Bush tax cuts for people making over $250,000 per year for a top marginal tax rate of 39.6%. Once we cut spending by getting out of Iraq and Afighanistan, we can then use that money to work on reducing the budget deficit, not to mention selling the stock in GM, AIG, etc, and get paid back TARP money from the banks.

 

[Trotter]

I do listen to what older people have to say and I've even said that I'm sure myself and my political views will develop over the years, although I doubt I'll do a flip-flop as I try to be consistent. Here's the deal, though: not all older people agree on political issues. I know older people who are hard right wing, bleeding heart liberals and everything in between. I pay a lot of attention to what they have to say and I take that into account. But at the same time, I have to take all of that and come to conclusions.

Also, I probably do need to tone it down a bit and I'll try to do that, but when people like Carpro say I should stick to counting people and calls me a flag-burner, etc., and that he likes to tell off Democrats to their face at some point I have to respond.

A word of wisdom... Pick your battles carefully. I learned that lesson a long time ago the hard way. Know your material, be sure you have your facts straight, and be ready to have your reality shifted if you are proven wrong.

Wisdom comes with age, Paul. You remind me of myself, way back when... the main difference is that I was a lost heathen at your age. Either way, age and experience showed me many, many things and changed a lot of my thinking. I walked away from liberalism fairly early, well before I was saved at 22. becoming a part of the workforce and having a family to support did wonders for that area of my thinking, let me tell you... working in another state, having to pay taxes in both and having nothing to show for it, three years without a raise due to wages being froze... all showed me that somebody had to pay for all the spending and that somebody was me and everyone else around me.

I also learned that the fairy tale of the rich not paying as much taxes is a load of bull. I got to spend some time with my folks' accountant right after I got out of high school. I learned a lot about just how much people paid in taxes and found out that I didn't really have it so bad. the adage, "the more you make, the more they take," has played out many, many times on my paycheck; I'd put in 20-50 hours of overtime, but my taxes took more and more of it. Take that and multiply it to make what the "rich" do and it will sober you up quick.

Money has to come from somewhere. It is an idea that is anchored in the labor of people as the paper itself is worth nothing. Unless money is backed by the belief and the sweat of the brow, the entire system will come crashing down. All these expansions and expenditures being pumped out by the current administration is not being backed by anything right now... other than an IOU that we, our children, and our grandchildren will be paying back. They can only tax the people so much... and turning on the "rich" ain't going to work.

Once we cut spending by getting out of Iraq and Afighanistan

That's not going to happen anytime soon. If we pull out too soon or too fast, it will create a vacuum that will be filled with worse than was there to begin with and cause major instability both in those countries and the surrounding region. That may not be what people want to hear, but it is the facts of life.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Trotter, there is a fallacy at work here. The "income" tax is really a wage tax that hits the working class. The wealthy do not get most of their income from wages. Yes there are taxes on other types of income, but there are also loopholes they take advantage of. Also, Social Security withholding is capped, and is regressively hitting the working class. So it isn't as simple as you might think. Only the wealthy can afford to run for Congress. If they are writing the rules, who do you think will get the breaks?

 

[Dragoon68]

Yes, I know there will be tax increases for the rich. It's time that they pay their fair share.

Just what is a "fair share" in the liberal mind? The share is already much more for the more wealthy than the less wealthy. The scale is already graduated to proportionally and quantitatively more for the more wealthy. The call the "make the rich pay their fair share" is based on envy for the wealth they have and the presumption that it should somehow belong to others. The only wealth that should be confiscated is that which is obtained illegally and then only by due process.

 

[Dragoon68]

Not true. It adds more choices and if it had the public option would lower costs.

It will raise the cost for the majority just to give benefits away to others. It will penalize those who have managed their talents and finances well by making them fund the costs of others who have not. It will be administered by arrogant bureaucrats who's sole purpose if life is to generate more bureaucracy.

 

[just-want-peace]

It will raise the cost for the majority just to give benefits away to others. It will penalize those who have managed their talents and finances well by making them fund the costs of others who have not. It will be administered by arrogant bureaucrats who's sole purpose if life is to generate more bureaucracy.

Bolded mine

This is probably the most sane reason to keep gov't out of healthcare than any posed yet.

Unions - Initially a good thing for the workers, needed! Now basically a parasite that freeloaders have taken over and lives solely to perpetuate itself.

AMA - Again a very need organization, but just how much "self policing" of incompetents do you see???

State board of * (you name your fav) - How many times do you see this being used to control competition rather than assuring that standards are met.

Farm subsidies/crop allocations etc - No comment; not BB approved!!

And look at the farce of Dept of Energy, Education OSHA etc ---creatures that should never have seen the light of day.

The list is endless, and once a board or agency is formed, after it has served it's purpose, it becomes just self-sustaining; the closest thing to "perpetual" that will ever exist on this old blue orb.

Better think twice (maybe ten X twice) before giving ANY gov't ANY (more) control.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I was talking about personal tax rates. We've had marginal tax rates as high as 94% in 1944 and '45. No one wants to go back there because it would stifle people's motivation to earn income. All I'm suggesting is rolling back the Bush tax cuts for people making over $250,000 per year for a top marginal tax rate of 39.6%. Once we cut spending by getting out of Iraq and Afighanistan, we can then use that money to work on reducing the budget deficit, not to mention selling the stock in GM, AIG, etc, and get paid back TARP money from the banks.

39.6% ? That's a "fair" rate ? And to us business owners, there is no difference. You take our money from so many avenues, we have no choice but lay-offs. I thought you cared about the poor. What you are doing is creating more. What incentive do I have to stay in business if you are taking 70% of my income, thru one way or another ?

You never answered my challenge, a few threads ago, to look at how the homeless population exploded under Clinton. Just Christian/Alatide used to do that. And I don't really care if you are him or not. The similarities are pretty confounding.