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My (JonC) view of the Atonement

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
agedman, I have provided you with scripture. It has not, seemingly, caught your attention. I wish you would stop making such a statement when you don't seem to actually care what scripture is provided.
I agree that you have provided Scripture. The problem is you have not provided Scripture to support your belief.

You provide passages then proceed to declare what they really mean....what they teach. But anybody...Holiness Pentecostals, Jehovah Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Roman Catholics....can "prove" their doctrine if the test is what people believe Scripture teaches.

You are elivating what you think the Bible teaches above what is actually written in Scripture. But if you place your belief at the foot of God's Word it does not stand.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Do you even believe in Pauline Justification then?
I believe in God's Word. This is where we find the doctrine of God delivered through the Apostle Paul.

Do I believe that your understanding of "Pauline Justification" is superior to God's Word? No.

It is GOD'S justification, not Paul's.

And when you view a difference between God's justification as recorded throughout Scripture, excluding the Pauline epistles, as inferior to Pauline Justification then you prove that you understand neither.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
I believe in God's Word. This is where we find the doctrine of God delivered through the Apostle Paul.

Do I believe that your understanding of "Pauline Justification" is superior to God's Word? No.

It is GOD'S justification, not Paul's.

And when you view a difference between God's justification as recorded throughout Scripture, excluding the Pauline epistles, as inferior to Pauline Justification then you prove that you understand neither.
Sigh...
God's revealed justification is what Paul wrote down. If you believe God's word, you believe Paul's explanation of justification by faith as outlined in Romans.

I get tired of these silly word games...
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Again, you use the word "impute" which has many variable definitions and you present "justification," also.

I responded to both.

Until you can furnish me what exactly you mean by "impute" I cannot answer.

I assumed your definition of justification and shared my thoughts and Scriptures.

Either you present Scriptures which can define your thinking or I really have no way to properly answer. I answered justification.

Do you agree with what I presented? Are you from the camp that considers that because Christ brought reconciliation/justification that believers are to be reconciled to everyone in the world no matter who or what they represent?

You want to talk about "impute." Fine, give me the definition and Scripture that you are working from.

I am really not trying to avoid your answer, but neither do I want to present an extremely long post that really doesn't pertain to the specifics you desire.
Imputation "is used to designate any action or word or thing as reckoned to a person. Thus in doctrinal language (1) the sin of Adam is imputed to all his descendants, i.e., it is reckoned as theirs, and they are dealt with therefore as guilty; (2) the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them that believe in him, or so attributed to them as to be considered their own; and (3) our sins are imputed to Christ, i.e., he assumed our 'law-place,' undertook to answer the demands of justice for our sins. In all these cases the nature of imputation is the same (Rom. 5:12-19; comp. Philemon 1:18, 19)." [1]

Imputation is distinct from impartation and infusion. The Greek verb for imputation, logizomai is used more than 40 times in the New Testament. It used ten times in Romans chapter 4—sometimes called the "imputation chapter." In the King James Version, logizomai is translated 'counted' (Rom 4:3, 5), 'reckoned' (Rom 4:4, 10), and 'imputed' (Rom 4:6, 8, 11, 22, 23, 24).
Per Theopedia
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
I believe in God's Word. This is where we find the doctrine of God delivered through the Apostle Paul.

Do I believe that your understanding of "Pauline Justification" is superior to God's Word? No.

It is GOD'S justification, not Paul's.

And when you view a difference between God's justification as recorded throughout Scripture, excluding the Pauline epistles, as inferior to Pauline Justification then you prove that you understand neither.
Do you agree?
Imputation "is used to designate any action or word or thing as reckoned to a person. Thus in doctrinal language (1) the sin of Adam is imputed to all his descendants, i.e., it is reckoned as theirs, and they are dealt with therefore as guilty; (2) the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them that believe in him, or so attributed to them as to be considered their own; and (3) our sins are imputed to Christ, i.e., he assumed our 'law-place,' undertook to answer the demands of justice for our sins. In all these cases the nature of imputation is the same (Rom. 5:12-19; comp. Philemon 1:18, 19)." [1]

Imputation is distinct from impartation and infusion. The Greek verb for imputation, logizomai is used more than 40 times in the New Testament. It used ten times in Romans chapter 4—sometimes called the "imputation chapter." In the King James Version, logizomai is translated 'counted' (Rom 4:3, 5), 'reckoned' (Rom 4:4, 10), and 'imputed' (Rom 4:6, 8, 11, 22, 23, 24).
Per Theopedia
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Sigh...
God's revealed justification is what Paul wrote down. If you believe God's word, you believe Paul's explanation of justification by faith as outlined in Romans.

I get tired of these silly word games...
Both of them seem to deny Imputation, and if true, would deny Pauline Justification, at least as held by the Reformers , and more in line with NT Wright and the NPP viewpoint!
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
I agree that you have provided Scripture. The problem is you have not provided Scripture to support your belief.

You provide passages then proceed to declare what they really mean....what they teach. But anybody...Holiness Pentecostals, Jehovah Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Roman Catholics....can "prove" their doctrine if the test is what people believe Scripture teaches.

You are elivating what you think the Bible teaches above what is actually written in Scripture. But if you place your belief at the foot of God's Word it does not stand.
You cannot claim that Psa is just error and not taught in the scriptures, as at best you can just hold to you disagree with Paul on this issue!
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Sigh...
God's revealed justification is what Paul wrote down. If you believe God's word, you believe Paul's explanation of justification by faith as outlined in Romans.

I get tired of these silly word games...
That is MY POINT.

There is no contradiction between Pauline Justification and God's Word. God's Word through Paul is still God's Word.

I quoted Scripture and Jesus Fan objected, saying that was not Pauline Justification. My response was not to you.

That said, you add to Scripture in places and deny it in other places. What have you do do with Paul???
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
That is MY POINT.

There is no contradiction between Pauline Justification and God's Word. God's Word through Paul is still God's Word.

I quoted Scripture and Jesus Fan objected, saying that was not Pauline Justification. My response was not to you.

That said, you add to Scripture in places and deny it in other places. What have you do do with Paul???
We deny your understanding of what is biblical meant by Pauline Justification!
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
You cannot claim that Psa is just error and not taught in the scriptures, as at best you can just hold to you disagree with Paul on this issue!
This is false. I actually agree with Oaul on this issue.

The ONLY PART of Penal Substitution Theory is the part that is not in the text of Scripture (to include the Pauline epistles).

Take the teachings that are not in God's Word out and I'm fine with Penal Substitution Theory.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
This is false. I actually agree with Oaul on this issue.

The ONLY PART of Penal Substitution Theory is the part that is not in the text of Scripture (to include the Pauline epistles).

Take the teachings that are not in God's Word out and I'm fine with Penal Substitution Theory.
The part that you want taken out is the very heart of Pauline Justification!
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I am reading through @SavedByGrace OP (On The Use of The Greek ὑπέρ and ἀντί) in another thread and in that post he mentions that:

According to Colin Brown, New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology,
"hyper" (Der Zweite Brief an Die Korinther, 1976, 152f.) is shown to bear a substutionary sense by inference.
He goes on for two posts from there, and you all can read for your own enjoyment.

The actual definition does not fit Substitution, but can only be applicable through adding or modification of the "hyper - hooper" definition.

The word is a placement word, one who is over, under, above, beyond, and signifies something of benefit for the sake of betterment.

It does NOT function as one who substitutes for another.

Substitute uses the Greek word "anti" and is used primarily as offsetting, in place of, substitution, ...

The two word in Scriptures are NOT similar, are not interchangeable, and cannot be interchanged.

Indeed, the BAGD (as @SavedByGrace posted) lists on ONE single verse that may have a "substitutionary sense" that bears on atonement - 1 Corinthians 5:14.

Christ did not "SUBSTITUE" anything. He is not our substitute, but our redeemer.

He took the sin, yet we still sin. What He took then was the condemnation of which believers now have none.

What was the condemnation? Death, and after death the judgement.

Because Christ was without sin, He was never judged a sinner, and therefore death had no power over Him (the same as the first Adam was not to die until sin enter him). Therefore the Scriptures teach that it is by the unmerited favor of God that believers have been saved, heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Ephesians and Titus).
Hebrews 10:
19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by the new and living way opened for us through the curtain of His body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.​

Christ did not substitute my blood for His blood, my body for His body, my life for His life, my Spirit for His Spirit. He gave, He redeemed, He bought with a price, He cancelled, He nailed to the cross, ... He NEVER was a "substitute" nor conformed to substitutionary atonement.

Now I realize that @JonC and I will not be in total agreement on this, for, like I have posted before, I typically present a harder line then He does. He, like some of my good friends now long dead, would contend for a softer more temperate view caused by the "inference" and suggest it as if it were doctrine.

But doctrine should never be supported on something only held by "inference" but that which is clearly taught by both statement and portrayal.

Inference has the properties of water. Apply enough outside force and it changes states.

Doctrine never changes states, and holds firm upon Scripture fact.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I am reading through @SavedByGrace OP (On The Use of The Greek ὑπέρ and ἀντί) in another thread and in that post he mentions that:

According to Colin Brown, New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology,
"hyper" (Der Zweite Brief an Die Korinther, 1976, 152f.) is shown to bear a substutionary sense by inference.
He goes on for two posts from there, and you all can read for your own enjoyment.

The actual definition does not fit Substitution, but can only be applicable through adding or modification of the "hyper - hooper" definition.

The word is a placement word, one who is over, under, above, beyond, and signifies something of benefit for the sake of betterment.

It does NOT function as one who substitutes for another.

Substitute uses the Greek word "anti" and is used primarily as offsetting, in place of, substitution, ...

The two word in Scriptures are NOT similar, are not interchangeable, and cannot be interchanged.

Indeed, the BAGD (as @SavedByGrace posted) lists on ONE single verse that may have a "substitutionary sense" that bears on atonement - 1 Corinthians 5:14.

Christ did not "SUBSTITUE" anything. He is not our substitute, but our redeemer.

He took the sin, yet we still sin. What He took then was the condemnation of which believers now have none.

What was the condemnation? Death, and after death the judgement.

Because Christ was without sin, He was never judged a sinner, and therefore death had no power over Him (the same as the first Adam was not to die until sin enter him). Therefore the Scriptures teach that it is by the unmerited favor of God that believers have been saved, heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Ephesians and Titus).
Hebrews 10:
19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by the new and living way opened for us through the curtain of His body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.​

Christ did not substitute my blood for His blood, my body for His body, my life for His life, my Spirit for His Spirit. He gave, He redeemed, He bought with a price, He cancelled, He nailed to the cross, ... He NEVER was a "substitute" nor conformed to substitutionary atonement.

Now I realize that @JonC and I will not be in total agreement on this, for, like I have posted before, I typically present a harder line then He does. He, like some of my good friends now long dead, would contend for a softer more temperate view caused by the "inference" and suggest it as if it were doctrine.

But doctrine should never be supported on something only held by "inference" but that which is clearly taught by both statement and portrayal.

Inference has the properties of water. Apply enough outside force and it changes states.

Doctrine never changes states, and holds firm upon Scripture fact.
I believe Christ offered Himself for us. Not His body for our body but He lay down His life that we might find life in Him. No exchange. Just redemption.
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I believe Christ offered Himself for us. Not His body for our body but He lay down His life that we might find life in Him. No exchange. Just redemption.
I totally agree.

However, I do not see this as substitution, but transferring. But John, do not forget that I do take a harder line then you in the matter of substitution. I just do not find it in the NT, and not in the OT atonement sacrifice.

Romans 3 states God will "justify the circumcised through faith and the uncircumcised through the same faith."

God transferring faith to us.

Christ certainly died for (died on the cross) us so that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him. (1 Thessalonians 5:10) ("for" - peri - with respect to a place, a cause, a time.)

Christ died for (to extend benefit to) us. (Romans 5:8) ("for" - hyper - on behalf of, in the interest of, to extend benefit, )

Christ also suffered for (peri - see above) sins once for all, the righteous for (hyper - see above) the unrighteous, to bring you to God. (1 Peter 3:18)

Christ died for (hyper - see above) our sins according to the Scriptures. (1 Corinthians 15:3)

Note: "anti" is not used.

@JonC, I have revised this a couple times to make it a bit more readable. Sorry that I don't make it that way the first time.
 
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JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I totally agree.

However, I do not see this as substitution, but transferring. But John, do not forget that I do take a harder line then you in the matter of substitution. I just do not find it in the NT, and not in the OT atonement sacrifice.

Romans 3 states God will "justify the circumcised through faith and the uncircumcised through the same faith."

God transferring faith to us.

Christ certainly died for (died on the cross) us so that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him. (1 Thessalonians 5:10) ("for" - peri - with respect to a place, a cause, a time.)

Christ died for (to extend benefit to) us. (Romans 5:8) ("for" - hyper - on behalf of, in the interest of, to extend benefit, )

Christ also suffered for (peri - see above) sins once for all, the righteous for (hyper - see above) the unrighteous, to bring you to God. (1 Peter 3:18)

Christ died for (hyper - see above) our sins according to the Scriptures. (1 Corinthians 15:3)

Note: "anti" is not used.

@JonC, I have revised this a couple times to make it a bit more readable. Sorry that I don't make it that way the first time.
I also do not view Christ's death or life as substitution. I allow the term if qualified to mean representation. Same with the OT sacrifice system. This was, obviously, not a substitutionary act.

Where we may disagree is in the idea transferring. I'm not sure how we would line up on this issue of interpretation, but it is good to get to discussing the interpretation of Scripture rather than the legitimacy (or lack there of) human theories added to Scripture.

If we look at sins then I have to say that sins committed by one person cannot be transferred to another. But I don't think this is what you mean.

We both believe that Christ took on all it is to be human - to include dying under the curse, under the bondage of sin and death common to man.

I think we also agree that Christ died for us so that we, sharing in His death in the flesh, will share in His life and resurrection from the dead. We are "clothed" in His righteousness.

But I am not sure that this is a transfer

I will have to consider your post a bit more.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
I believe Christ offered Himself for us. Not His body for our body but He lay down His life that we might find life in Him. No exchange. Just redemption.
Did Israel find life in the sacrifice of a lamb?
Jon, it seems you just ignore the entire old testament covenant and claim something you want, but is not expressed in the Bible.
The more I read your proof texts, the more I see they have no context.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Did Israel find life in the sacrifice of a lamb?
Jon, it seems you just ignore the entire old testament covenant and claim something you want, but is not expressed in the Bible.
The more I read your proof texts, the more I see they have no context.
Temporarily. This was (per Scripture) God passing over their sins until the New Covenant.

Let's get back to your objection to the New Covenant being the righteousness of God manifested apart from the law.....or have you just realized this was what Paul wrote in Romans?
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Temporarily. This was (per Scripture) God passing over their sins until the New Covenant.

Let's get back to your objection to the New Covenant being the righteousness of God manifested apart from the law.....or have you just realized this was what Paul wrote in Romans?
God didn't pass over their sins. Their sins were paid for by their Redeemer at the cross. Their justification was by faith (Read Hebrews 11).

The New Covenant comes because Jesus fulfilled the requirement of the Old Covenant. The New Covenant is affirmed at the last supper and implemented at the cross.

As to what Paul wrote in Romans, I wonder if you misunderstand Paul completely.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
God didn't pass over their sins. Their sins were paid for by their Redeemer at the cross. Their justification was by faith (Read Hebrews 11).

The New Covenant comes because Jesus fulfilled the requirement of the Old Covenant. The New Covenant is affirmed at the last supper and implemented at the cross.

As to what Paul wrote in Romans, I wonder if you misunderstand Paul completely.
No. I may misunderstand some issues. I am not perfect. But I am not incorrect in rejecting your theories as they fail the test of Scripture.

Earlier you rejected the idea that our redemption is God's righteousness manifested apart from the law. Now you reject that God, in His forbearance, passed over the sins committed until that time.

But both of those are Scripture.

I have pointed @Iconoclast to Scripture, and I will do the same with you. God's Word is perfect and complete. It teaches "what is written". Your theories fail the test of Scripture.
 
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