My Journey Into The Catholic Church

[DHK]

A quote from Pope Benedict XVI

well aware of the seriousness of this act, with full freedom I declare that I renounce the ministry of Bishop of Rome, Successor of Saint Peter, entrusted to me by the Cardinals on 19 April 2005, in such a way, that as from 28 February 2013, at 20:00 hours, the See of Rome, the See of Saint Peter, will be vacant and a Conclave to elect the new Supreme Pontiff will have to be convoked by those whose competence it is.
Dear Brothers, I thank you most sincerely for all the love and work with which you have supported me in my ministry and I ask pardon for all my defects. And now, let us entrust the Holy Church to the care of Our Supreme Pastor, Our Lord Jesus Christ, and implore his holy Mother Mary, so that she may assist the Cardinal Fathers with her maternal solicitude, in electing a new Supreme Pontiff. With regard to myself, I wish to also devotedly serve the Holy Church of God in the future through a life dedicated to prayer. From the Vatican, 10 February 2013

http://en.radiovaticana.va/m_articolo.asp?c=663815

This poses problems for the Catholic Church.
They claim to have the "keys." The Pope steps down on Feb. 28, and a new one will not be in place until the last day of March. A full month goes by without a pope. What happens to the "keys"? Can no one enter into heaven during this period of time. The RCC is now popeless (during the month of March). If "popeless, then "keyless." True?

What other difficulties do we see here. Look at the "prayer" being offered here. Who is implored for assistance and guidance? It isn't our Lord; it is Mary. This is idolatry. Mary is made a god, whether they will admit it or not. In fact one can clearly see that Mary has more power than Christ. In his prayer Christ is to implore Mary, that Mary can assist the cardinals. What blasphemy!!
If any person should think that the veneration and worship of Mary plays a minor role in the RCC, they should think again.

The idea of succession here has stopped. Nothing like this has happened for some 600 years. It throws the RCC in a quagmire. They will then have two living popes at the same time. Benedict will be a "pope emeritus."
It really is all a farce.

 

[Bronconagurski]

A quote from Pope Benedict XVI

http://en.radiovaticana.va/m_articolo.asp?c=663815

This poses problems for the Catholic Church.
They claim to have the "keys." The Pope steps down on Feb. 28, and a new one will not be in place until the last day of March. A full month goes by without a pope. What happens to the "keys"? Can no one enter into heaven during this period of time. The RCC is now popeless (during the month of March). If "popeless, then "keyless." True?

What other difficulties do we see here. Look at the "prayer" being offered here. Who is implored for assistance and guidance? It isn't our Lord; it is Mary. This is idolatry. Mary is made a god, whether they will admit it or not. In fact one can clearly see that Mary has more power than Christ. In his prayer Christ is to implore Mary, that Mary can assist the cardinals. What blasphemy!!
If any person should think that the veneration and worship of Mary plays a minor role in the RCC, they should think again.

The idea of succession here has stopped. Nothing like this has happened for some 600 years. It throws the RCC in a quagmire. They will then have two living popes at the same time. Benedict will be a "pope emeritus."
It really is all a farce.

While I agree it is idolatry, I think that the Pope was saying let us do two things, the second being implore Mary. IOW, they were to implore Mary, not Jesus. Either way, it is still idolatry.

 

[DHK]

While I agree it is idolatry, I think that the Pope was saying let us do two things, the second being implore Mary. IOW, they were to implore Mary, not Jesus. Either way, it is still idolatry.

After re-reading it, you are probably right. It appeared to be a bit ambiguous to me at first.

 

[Walter]

A quote from Pope Benedict XVI

http://en.radiovaticana.va/m_articolo.asp?c=663815

This poses problems for the Catholic Church.
They claim to have the "keys." The Pope steps down on Feb. 28, and a new one will not be in place until the last day of March. A full month goes by without a pope. What happens to the "keys"? Can no one enter into heaven during this period of time. The RCC is now popeless (during the month of March). If "popeless, then "keyless." True?

What other difficulties do we see here. Look at the "prayer" being offered here. Who is implored for assistance and guidance? It isn't our Lord; it is Mary. This is idolatry. Mary is made a god, whether they will admit it or not. In fact one can clearly see that Mary has more power than Christ. In his prayer Christ is to implore Mary, that Mary can assist the cardinals. What blasphemy!!
If any person should think that the veneration and worship of Mary plays a minor role in the RCC, they should think again.

The idea of succession here has stopped. Nothing like this has happened for some 600 years. It throws the RCC in a quagmire. They will then have two living popes at the same time. Benedict will be a "pope emeritus."
It really is all a farce.

You got it wrong! Christ is not to 'implore Mary' or Christ is not asking Mary for assistance. Mary has no super-natural powers. She can only even hear our request for intercession by way of God. Catholics don't make Mary a god but you really want to believe that, don't you? Regardless of how many times Catholics tell you that we know who and what we worship, you refuse to believe us. Sad

This is absolutely not a problem for the Church. Why should it matter if a pope retires anymore than if any other bishop retires? When a bishop retires in a diocese and another takes his place, is there a problem? He will simply cease to carry out papal duties. No biggy!

 

[DHK]

You got it wrong! Christ is not to 'implore Mary' or Christ is not asking Mary for assistance. Mary has no super-natural powers. She can only even hear our request for intercession by way of God.
This is absolutely not a problem for the Church. Why should it matter if a pope retires anymore than if any other bishop retires? When a bishop retires in a diocese and another takes his place, is there a problem? He will simply cease to carry out papal duties. No biggy!

Yes, I admitted that I read it wrong.
Second, to implore Mary is worship, and it is still idolatry. It would be good for you to look at this from a Biblical standpoint and not be blinded by the RCC.
Third, It seems apparent that you have not been listening to the Catholics themselves who post on their own sites and elsewhere. As I have said many times, I live in a country that is primarily Catholic. They are concerned. The big question they ask is: Why didn't he carry out his duties until his death? Pope John Paul II had failing health also, and yet he carried on until he died. So did the popes previous to him. This is out of the norm. It causes confusion and even problems in the doctrine of the RCC. I have pointed some of them out for you.

It is not the matter of a "bishop" retiring; it is a pope; a supposed successor of Peter. I posted this in rebuttal to TS post of papal succession or the handing down of the keys. Obviously there is no one to have the keys for an entire month. The Church is without her head--a headless monster. You have a break in succession. Too bad. Of course worse things have happened.

 

[Baptist4life]

Catholics don't make Mary a god.....

Sure coulda fooled me!!!

 

[Walter]

Good morning Walter. I asked the question that I did because you stated



As you seemed to imply that His words were not a metaphor, but that He was saying the bread He was presenting was actually His flesh. I ask again, if He was being LITERAL about them eating His flesh and not talking from a spiritual sense, then why not literally give them a piece of flesh and his own blood?

I think these are the problems we run into when people say that He was saying that the bread had now supernaturally become His body, now eat of it.

So either His intent was that they eat of His physical body, which they could of because He was right there, yet that's not what was offered. Or He was talking about supernaturally eating from His spiritual body and drinking His spiritual blood.

The disciples didn't literally do it so why would we think that Holy Communion leads us to literally do it as opposed to it being a spiritual sacrament?

Sacraments appear to always be spiritual as opposed to physical. Baptism is likewise supposed to be an outward representation of the spiritual.

Or do Catholics also believe that something else is taking place by the sprinkling on of the water?

I'll try to explain. When I went phrase by phrase examining John 6:52-59 (though I had done this many times before) I examined it from the Catholic position and even looked at the Lutheran position on this passage. I was struck by the force of Jesus' words as he says over & over that His body and blood are to be eaten and even chewed and drunk to receive His life.

I used to think Jesus was teaching about faith based on verse 63, 'the flesh is of no avail.' But then I read the rest of the verse. 'It is the Spirit that gives life.' In other words, Jesus was not saying 'come on up and get a toe or a finger, He was directing our attention to time after His death, Resurrection and Ascension when the Spirit would give the disciples His glorified body so that His flesh would be life-giving for the world.

Besides, why would it have offended the Jews so much if Jesus was speaking about faith and a symbolic sacrifice of His body and blood? Why did Jesus allow most of His followers to take off under a basic misunderstanding when it would have been very simple to clarify at least for his closest disciples? But nowhere in Scripture to we find Him explaining that they had mis-understood Him.

Now, how could our Lord, in His humanity, give His actual body and blood to His disciple in the Last Supper? (I've seen this challenged over and over on this board) and if He didn't do it there, why should we say it is more than a symbol in our re-presentation of this act? Well, I bring your attention back to the miracle of the loaves and fishes. This multiplication of food was to point the way of Jesus miraculous multiplication of His body and blood for all who would receive Him. How? Of course in His humanity alone He could not have separated His body and blood in the Upper Room to give to His disciples. But then He never was just human. He was also fully Divine and He could have sat there in His body and blood and at the same time turned the bread and wine into His body and blood. In fact, He did!

Many people don't know why Catholics bow or genuflect in the direction of the altar in Catholic churches. They think they are bowing to objects when in fact they are bowing to Jesus whose presence remains in the reserved sacrament that is kept in a tabernacle to take to the sick and distribute during Holy Communion when what is being consecrated on the altar is not sufficient to give everyone communion. Now, IF Jesus is not present then what Catholics are doing IS idolatry. But if Catholics are right (and they are) then they are giving the correct response. If you should kneel before a king today, how much more should you kneel before the King of Kings and Lord of Lords? This is all foreshadowed in the OT. But as a Baptist, I had precious little use for the typology of the OT. Most Protestants do not.

 

[Walter]

Sure coulda fooled me!!!

Asking her intercession before a statue or picture is NOT worship. You believe all prayer is worship. I do not. The man kissing the cross before the statue, what do you think that expression means. Do you know or are you making an assumption because you look at these pictures through your Protestant lens? BTW, the pope standing there with his hands raised. I suspect you and whoever runs the webpage this is off of, thinks he has raised hands in praise of Mary. Actually, he has just placed the crown on her head. Mary's title as Queen of Heaven did not come from being married to God (as I was taught Catholics believe in my Baptist college) but was based on the honor of being the Queen Mother of Jesus (btw, look back at the OT and see who always had the Kings ear, it was the Queen Mother!) In the Old Testament, King Solomon, the son of David, elevated his mother, Bathsheba, to a throne at his right hand, paying her homage in his court as the queen mother. Jesus has done the same with His mother and I have no problem paying her homage (but NOT worship) as the Queen Mother of Heaven. Mary's mission was to point beyond herself to Jesus, saying 'do whatever He says.'

 

[DFG]

Ok, I realize a large percentage of the Hispanic population is Catholic. What is the deal with Mary? When I worked the road we picked up a lot of Hispanics and in searching them most all of them had a picture of Mary in there wallet. Seriously you could shoot their wife but if you damaged their pic of Mary it was on.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Yep!

Baptist4life...I won't hit the "quote" button on that cause posting those pictures once is all that is required. As the old saying goes, "A picture is worth a thousand words"....AMEN! Clearly, plainly, and tragically for these dear sincere and obviously deceived people this is nothing more or less than idolatry. To our friend Walter....I would only implore you...don't be so hasty about your decision. Be non-denominational if not Baptist....but NOT Catholic..please not that! It IS a false religion/church. There is nowhere in the Word of God that justifies this kind of thing. Mary was blessed of God to be the birth mother of our Lord but she is not a "perpetual" virgin nor worthy or deserving of the veneration or worship that is offered her by Catholic decree and practice. I am praying for "light" for you in this matter.

Bro.Gregraying::saint:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ok, I realize a large percentage of the Hispanic population is Catholic. What is the deal with Mary? When I worked the road we picked up a lot of Hispanics and in searching them most all of them had a picture of Mary in there wallet. Seriously you could shoot their wife but if you damaged their pic of Mary it was on.

Mary is da momma dude..... didnt you know that? Try pickin up an Italian next time & see whats in their wallet? Speaking words of wisdom....Let it be, let it be.

Ever see a grotto in a neighbors yard?

 

[Walter]

Ok, I realize a large percentage of the Hispanic population is Catholic. What is the deal with Mary? When I worked the road we picked up a lot of Hispanics and in searching them most all of them had a picture of Mary in there wallet. Seriously you could shoot their wife but if you damaged their pic of Mary it was on.

I realize that certain examples of Marian piety that focus on Mary to the point of neglecting Jesus are not faithful to Catholic teaching on her. I'm sure these souls do not realize it, but they are offending the Blessed Mother even by their attempts to honor her, if in fact, they are neglecting Mary's primary purpose and that is to bring us to Jesus.

 

[DHK]

Asking her intercession before a statue or picture is NOT worship.

Yes it is. Ignore RCC teaching; take the Bible (not Catholic), turn to Exodus 20 and begin reading from the first verse where the Ten Commandments are written (unedited by the Catholic Church), preferably in the KJV.
Bowing to an image; praying before an image, interceding to anyone other than God is idolatry.

You believe all prayer is worship. I do not.

Let's be more accurate. I believe the Bible, not the Catechism, not the RCC, etc. The Bible teaches that prayer is worship. I believe God over the RCC. You need to choose which authority will guide your life: the Bible or the RCC. They are in opposition to each other.

The man kissing the cross before the statue, what do you think that expression means. Do you know or are you making an assumption because you look at these pictures through your Protestant lens?

Would you kiss the ring of the pope? Many Catholics would. It is undue adoration of a man. That adoration, veneration belongs only to God. Go to Exodus 20, and see where God says, "I am a jealous God, I will not give my glory to another." That includes Mary and the pope and all the saints in heaven. God will not be robbed of his glory. He is a "jealous" God. It is jealous in the sense that I am jealous of my wife. I will not share her with another.

BTW, the pope standing there with his hands raised. I suspect you and whoever runs the webpage this is off of, thinks he has raised hands in praise of Mary. Actually, he has just placed the crown on her head. Mary's title as Queen of Heaven did not come from being married to God (as I was taught Catholics believe in my Baptist college) but was based on the honor of being the Queen Mother of Jesus (btw, look back at the OT and see who always had the Kings ear, it was the Queen Mother!) In the Old Testament, King Solomon, the son of David, elevated his mother, Bathsheba, to a throne at his right hand, paying her homage in his court as the queen mother. Jesus has done the same with His mother and I have no problem paying her homage (but NOT worship) as the Queen Mother of Heaven. Mary's mission was to point beyond herself to Jesus, saying 'do whatever He says.'

Whatever. In the quote I gave previously the pope gave more prominence in his prayer to Mary than he did to Christ. He prayed to Mary for guidance rather than to Jesus. This is idolatry. All prayer to Mary is worship and idolatry. It is wrong. It is robbing God of his rightful worship. Prayer is worship.

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
--Not Mary, but the Lord our Creator deserves worship.

 

[DFG]

I realize that certain examples of Marian piety that focus on Mary to the point of neglecting Jesus are not faithful to Catholic teaching on her. I'm sure these souls do not realize it, but they are offending the Blessed Mother even by their attempts to honor her, if in fact, they are neglecting Mary's primary purpose and that is to bring us to Jesus.

Thanks I just had always wondered about that.

 

[webdog]

You got it wrong! Christ is not to 'implore Mary' or Christ is not asking Mary for assistance. Mary has no super-natural powers. She can only even hear our request for intercession by way of God

How with potentially hundreds if not thousands praying around the globe at any given moment? Is God her secretary as she is neither omniscient or omnipresent. How are these messages relayed to a finite human in heaven?

 

[Walter]

How with potentially hundreds if not thousands praying around the globe at any given moment? Is God her secretary as she is neither omniscient or omnipresent. How are these messages relayed to a finite human in heaven?

How? She is in God's presence. She is only able (or any soul who has entered into God's presence) hear us ask for her intercession by the will of God Himself. Nothing is too difficult for God!

"Hail, Mary!" (inscription at the Church of the Annunciation in Nazareth [A.D. 200]) Honoring Mary has been part of the Christian Faith for a long, long time.

 

[webdog]

How? She is in God's presence. She is only able (or any soul who has entered into God's presence) hear us ask for her intercession by the will of God Himself. Nothing is too difficult for God!

"Hail, Mary!" (inscription at the Church of the Annunciation in Nazareth [A.D. 200]) Honoring Mary has been part of the Christian Faith for a long, long time.

So you are saying He gives us divine attributes in His presence?

 

[Walter]

Yes, I admitted that I read it wrong.
Second, to implore Mary is worship, and it is still idolatry. It would be good for you to look at this from a Biblical standpoint and not be blinded by the RCC.
Third, It seems apparent that you have not been listening to the Catholics themselves who post on their own sites and elsewhere. As I have said many times, I live in a country that is primarily Catholic. They are concerned. The big question they ask is: Why didn't he carry out his duties until his death? Pope John Paul II had failing health also, and yet he carried on until he died. So did the popes previous to him. This is out of the norm. It causes confusion and even problems in the doctrine of the RCC. I have pointed some of them out for you.

It is not the matter of a "bishop" retiring; it is a pope; a supposed successor of Peter. I posted this in rebuttal to TS post of papal succession or the handing down of the keys. Obviously there is no one to have the keys for an entire month. The Church is without her head--a headless monster. You have a break in succession. Too bad. Of course worse things have happened.

One of the duties that Pope Benedict believes a pope should be able carry out is attend the World Youth Day. This event is huge and his presence there is a very big draw. The World Youth Day is in Rio. The Pope can no longer travel. So this alone is reason enough for him to retire. By resigning he positively impacts the perception of the Catholic Church in our day. He has shown great humility and servant leadership by reminding the Catholic Church and all Christians that the office should be more important than any man’s ego in holding the office past his ability to function effectively and to guard the faith. The Bishop of Rome has become increasingly relevant in the modern world and his resignation, I think, underscores that relevancy as well as fosters it further.

May God bless him and grant him a much deserved rest in retirement.


You said that 'in the popes prayer he ask mary for guidance'. I'm interested in reading that prayer but could not find where you posted it. Could you give me the link?

As far as apostolic succession. Every bishop on earth would need to die or resign for it to be broken. Of course that has never nor will ever happen. The Church has survived since Jesus founded it for over 2,000 years. Popes die in office and new ones are elected and that does not break Apostolic Succession.

 

[DHK]

How? She is in God's presence. She is only able (or any soul who has entered into God's presence) hear us ask for her intercession by the will of God Himself. Nothing is too difficult for God!

"Hail, Mary!" (inscription at the Church of the Annunciation in Nazareth [A.D. 200]) Honoring Mary has been part of the Christian Faith for a long, long time.

First, Mary was a human just like your great grandmother.
And, just like your great grandmother is dead, so is Mary.
Just like you would not go to the grave and pray TO your great grandmother, neither should you pray TO Mary. They are both dead.
The Bible condemns praying to the dead. It is within the practice of necromancy, and in the very least it is idolatry. Your dead grandmother has an equal chance of helping you as Mary does. Neither one can hear your prayers.

To ascribe the attributes of omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence to Mary is to ascribe deity to her. And that is what you have done.
Think over the words of the "Hail Mary." "Pray for us sinners now..."
In order for Mary to hear that prayer she would have to be everywhere all over this world, as Catholics live all over the world. That is the attribute of omnipresence.
She would have to be omniscient. Not only do they pray memorized prayers, but also extemporaneously--from the heart. For example she would have no idea what the prayer of the Pope would have been, unless she was omniscient.
That leads us to omnipotent. Is she able to answer the Pope's prayer, and all other prayers directed to her? Is she that powerful?
You have ascribed these three attributes of deity to Mary, essentially making her a god.

 

[Walter]

First, Mary was a human just like your great grandmother.
And, just like your great grandmother is dead, so is Mary.
Just like you would not go to the grave and pray TO your great grandmother, neither should you pray TO Mary. They are both dead.
The Bible condemns praying to the dead. It is within the practice of necromancy, and in the very least it is idolatry. Your dead grandmother has an equal chance of helping you as Mary does. Neither one can hear your prayers.

To ascribe the attributes of omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence to Mary is to ascribe deity to her. And that is what you have done.
Think over the words of the "Hail Mary." "Pray for us sinners now..."
In order for Mary to hear that prayer she would have to be everywhere all over this world, as Catholics live all over the world. That is the attribute of omnipresence.
She would have to be omniscient. Not only do they pray memorized prayers, but also extemporaneously--from the heart. For example she would have no idea what the prayer of the Pope would have been, unless she was omniscient.
That leads us to omnipotent. Is she able to answer the Pope's prayer, and all other prayers directed to her? Is she that powerful?
You have ascribed these three attributes of deity to Mary, essentially making her a god.

Necromancy:
The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future.
Black magic; sorcery.
Magic qualities
Asking the intercession of saints does not meet the meaning of Necromancy IMHO.
If I might bring out something once again; asking the saints to intercede isn't praying to the dead but asking living saints to pray for the living. Catholicism does not make a distinction, essentially, between a person living in heaven and a person living on earth. They are both living people. As the 'Church' is also the place or way that Christians gather together to pray, 'where two or more of you are gathered etc.', the prayers of those Christians are also, when necessary, for each other, and for each others intentions, as well as prayers of worship to God.
So gathering together with the Christians on earth, the church, and the saints in heaven together, all pray to God in worship of God and also for the intentions of Christians in need.
A prayer to a saint in heaven is at once asking the living saint in heaven for their prayers and also it is both those people, the person in heaven and the person on earth, praying together to God for whatever intention or help is required; 'give us this day our daily bread.... etc.' We were instructed by Christ to both pray for what we need and also to pray together and He will be there amongst us.